₿itcoin Tonight🚀 Bitcoin Woke Up ANGRY Bulls Are Running Wild Today 🐂

Hosted by @₿itcoin ₿ull · 2026-03-04 · Tags: BTC

TLDR

Participants educate newer Bitcoin users on blocks, UTXOs, nodes, miners, transaction fees, SHA-256 and proof-of-work security. The discussion then turns strongly bullish, arguing that improving liquidity and institutional adoption support higher prices, while warning that ETF concentration, custodial dependence and poor self-custody practices could undermine Bitcoin’s decentralization benefits.

Blocks continuously record transactions even after Bitcoin reaches its 21 million supply cap.
UTXOs represent spendable transaction outputs, and multiple wallet deposits create multiple UTXOs.
Nodes validate and relay transactions, while miners assemble transactions into blocks and perform proof of work.
Bitcoin Core and Bitcoin Knots were described as different node software implementations that remain compatible with Bitcoin consensus.
SHA-256 was presented as a core building block for transaction identifiers, block linkage and proof of work.
The enormous energy and specialized hardware required for a majority-hash-rate attack were cited as key protections against rewriting Bitcoin history.
Participants emphasized that miners are economically incentivized to mine honestly rather than spend vast resources attacking the network.
The market outlook was strongly bullish, with speakers citing improving liquidity, institutional demand and the possibility of Bitcoin eventually reaching $500,000 to $1 million.
Speakers warned that excessive ETF and custodian concentration could create paper-Bitcoin, rehypothecation and censorship risks.
Self-custody, seed-phrase security and continued education were encouraged, especially for newcomers entering during a bull cycle.

Speakers

₿itcoin ₿ull — Hosted the discussion, asked beginner-oriented technical questions, developed analogies for blocks and transaction fees, and later argued that Bitcoin is a uniquely secure long-term asset with substantial upside.
Speaker 2 — Encouraged the host and newer participants, added humor, supported Bitcoin education and cautioned that dismissive branding could discourage people from listening.
Speaker 3 — Helped moderate the technical discussion, distinguished related protocol debates, recommended educational resources and argued that investing without asking questions would be foolish.
Speaker 4 — Delivered detailed explanations of transactions, nodes, mining, proof of work, SHA-256 and Bitcoin’s security model, while also discussing bullish market conditions and the centralization risks posed by custodians and ETFs.
Speaker 5 — Explained UTXOs, blocks, blockchain structure, node software and the distinction between Bitcoin Core and Knots, while stressing that Bitcoin is too deep for anyone to understand completely.
Hector Lopez — Made a brief appearance during the discussion and contributed only limited audible commentary.

Notable quotes

“There would be always transaction the blocks stores.” — Speaker 5
“I enjoy asking dumb questions because if there's someone in the audience who is afraid to ask, at least I'll take the heat.” — ₿itcoin ₿ull
“It's the most indestructible, imalleable thing that human beings have ever created.” — Speaker 4
“He's doing it not to protect the network. He's doing it to earn Bitcoin and so and like, and there's nothing wrong with that because it does protect the net.” — Speaker 4
“The more you understand it, the more like awe and respect you have for what Satoshi came up with and more confidence and conviction you have.” — Speaker 4
“There are no other proof of work chains that have anywhere near the hash power supporting it as Bitcoin.” — ₿itcoin ₿ull
“You can ignore the price, you can ignore all the idiots on the Internet, you can ignore all the idiots on TV and you can just buy and hold these to, well, So what, what's going on right now?” — ₿itcoin ₿ull
“And I said, all things be equal, if you build a model that bitcoins going to go to 500,000 over the next five years or you think it's going to go to a million over the next 710 years or whatever, all things be equal, you would rather buy it at 100,000 than 120,000.” — ₿itcoin ₿ull

Transcript

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I don't know what happened. You guys there. Hold on. Hello. Connection or something? That's crazy, because I didn't even go nowhere. I just went to, like, the next room. That's nuts. Fuck. I hope Jax comes back. Yeah, I'm sure. Everybody come back. It's nothing usually going on around this time. Oh, right. It's earlier there.

Speaker 2: I can hear you now.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I don't know what happened. It rugged somehow. That's really weird because I never did that before. I guess I have to just leave the phone right here by the the router. Hopefully Gen. X comes back. I'm I'm pretty sure he will. Hopefully he comes back. I was like I was still there and I was like trying to talk to everybody and then I just see people leaving. I see the Co host gets dropped. I'm like what the fuck is going on? And it's fucked up because I was like literally walking from my room to the elevator to go down for a smoke and I'm like fuck I left at the wrong.

Speaker 3: Time.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I was blaming myself, but it ended up not being me. It was you. It was on the on your end. Yeah, that's crazy. I guess it's more sensitive when you host because I literally just went into the other room. I didn't even go nowhere else. See. See. Why are you leaving? This is a good conversation. You should stay. I mean, I know pretty much about it. You got to learn. I'm glad you're, I'm glad you're asking. And it's good for the audience, too.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's good for me too, because I don't know anything.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Everybody, that's why I, you know, it's great how it's taking the time to explain that because I'm, I'm not good at explaining shit. To be honest. I'm really horrible on it. So your top does such a better job. I'm just better at like jumping into certain points. Yeah, it's good because you can, you can fill in the gaps, which is really nice because when someone you know what, because you can tell if they're like, if they're not being clear enough and you can jump in and go, hey, OK, this is what he means by this. And it's really nice to have that, that definitely, especially even with Gen. X when there's a couple people, cuz like, like there's so many moving parts of Bitcoin. So it's like you don't you don't remember, first of you don't remember everything. And then even if you know, it's hard to explain it. So you start forgetting certain errors and then you have somebody to back you up where you're like, you know, throw out, throw it away, throw it at you in a different way to explain it better. So it's good when it's more than one person. So you know, doing this waiting explain this to me. Does the 21,000,000 have any correlation to the blocks like in like in which I I thought that there's only 21 million blocks to be made. No, blocks are different from so, so basically Bitcoin is just living in the blockchain. Like there's 21 million Bitcoin, but the blockchain is separate from Bitcoin. So nobody actually holds the actual Bitcoin. Even when they say in cold wallets, it's pretty much, it's pretty much all in. Well, I don't know how what's the best way to explain it on a blockchain or in cyberspace, but the blockchain is, it's just pretty much you have access to it to move it. That's all it really is. So blockchain is.

Speaker 4: Like its own.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Universe Gentile.

Speaker 5: OK. So the Bitcoin is different from the block that's different from the blockchain. So a Bitcoin, you can think about it this way, remember the concept they caught UTXO, they say UTXOA lot of time and that represents unspent transaction output. So your wallet when it has a Bitcoin it also has a UTXO which will reference. One Bitcoin it could reference, half a Bitcoin it could reference.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Basically, for every transaction that you make from exchange to your cold wall at UTXO is added to that that transaction.

Speaker 5: So every transaction shows a.

Speaker 4: A UTXO.

Speaker 5: So if I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Have one Bitcoin in my cold wallet but it took me 20 transactions to get me to 1 Bitcoin there. I have 20 UUTXOS.

Speaker 2: In there.

Speaker 5: Correct. If you sent if you made 20 transactions to your wallet, correct So so.

₿itcoin ₿ull: If you send like 10 bucks from your cold wallet from your exchange to your cold wallet, you're also getting a UTXO attached to that 10 bucks, yeah.

Speaker 5: Don't, don't, don't throw in the word cold wallet because it just adds additional thing to say wallet because you're.

Speaker 3: You're.

Speaker 5: Wallet so so go ahead, say that again.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So, so before not to get into UTX OS, yeah, because that's a good thing that we can get into after. But I thought that the block, see I I was correlating Bitcoin with the blockchain, but it's not. And you're saying even the block and the blockchain is different. So explain that whole how it all correlates together.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. So a block, just remember a block, it's just like a what what I said earlier, it's just let's a picture in your head, a square, right? That's a block. Now a block chain is, let's say 10 squares, and you had actually have a line that connects one block to another.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It's like a history of all the blocks.

Speaker 5: Right. And and the connection piece, I don't know if I should go into that because that gets a little bit like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So tell me this before we get into that is the block is is creating blocks infinite?

Speaker 5: Yes, OK, the miners will construct a block infinitely.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So they can just make blocks forever and ever and ever and then Bitcoin has its own special chain of blocks that is just Bitcoin where?

Speaker 5: You no, no, the miners are making the Bitcoin blocks. That's what they're constructing is the Bitcoin blocks.

Speaker 4: But it's also a.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Chain because you can see the whole history of all the blocks.

Speaker 5: That we made, yeah, no, the block that the minor generates, right, eventually will be added to the chain.

Speaker 4: So so on the chain.

₿itcoin ₿ull: The chain consists of the previous block and so on. Yeah, but each one of those blocks consists of all the transactions. I get that, but is that just Bitcoin or because there's not just only Bitcoin blocks?

Speaker 5: We're only talking about Bitcoin, not.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. Yeah, it's a Bitcoin block chain.

Speaker 2: Right, but, but.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So when we're talking about blocks in general, it's not just for Bitcoin because it can't be infinite. If there's only just but there's only 21 million bitcoins, then how could it be infinite? Aren't all the blocks going to fill up eventually when we hit 21 million?

Speaker 5: No, no, the, the all the blocks, OK, let's say imagine the blocks, it's 1000 blocks right now in the chain, 1000 blocks, right? Those 1000 blocks will have a total of whatever the circulation amount Bitcoin is like 19,000,000 right now, I think 19 something million Bitcoin. So all those blocks will have you TX OS that show a total of that many correct bitcoins.

Speaker 4: So there's two.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Million left. There's 2 million Bitcoin left, right?

Speaker 5: Yeah, you can check. I don't know exact numbers.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, whatever the number is, whatever the number is left, that's still, well, whatever whatever is left, I I think they said, you know, by 20-30 or something.

Speaker 5: 2020 I think.

₿itcoin ₿ull: And then the next one, then and then the remainder is going to take another 100 years to mine.

Speaker 5: That's correct.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. So that's what I'm trying to understand, like is the blocks, air blocks and blockchain, they're not just for Bitcoin because other things can go on blocks and other.

Speaker 5: Things can be then that would be a separate blockchain, right? Other coins out there, they have their own blocks and own block chain.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. So, so if we're talking if there's only 21 million Bitcoin, eventually there's going to be no more blocks to be to be mined because there's no more Bitcoin to put into blocks.

Speaker 5: No, no, that's no.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So that's where I'm confused.

Speaker 5: There would be always transaction the blocks stores.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK, so the block is like I see. So the block is basically like your bank account. Every time you do a deposit or or a fucking withdrawal, that's a block tracking that what's happening.

Speaker 5: Right. And just not your bank account, everybody.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Everybody's exactly so so blocks is is all that is, is just a a tracking of history of what's happening. So they'll be forever blocks because everybody's always going to be transacting correct. I get it. I get it. OK, I get that now. So let's is is X, Gen. X here? Gen. X is back, so Gen. X back to the shirt and then what you were going to.

Speaker 3: Say, oh, I think Hector has something he wants to say. Hello, Hector.

₿itcoin ₿ull: And sorry, sorry about that Gen. XI. Don't know how the heck it got wrong but.

Speaker 3: That's no big deal, man.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Go ahead, Hector. You want to jump in.

Speaker 3: None, just. It's fine. It's just.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hector Lopez is that. Is that Greek?

Hector Lopez: No, not at all.

Speaker 3: But you're fine. You're you're misconceiving or misunderstanding how blocks are, but it's whatever, you'll get it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: What what what do you think? It is Greek so you can try the box and say we'll explain it where you're. So I think, I think what the what a block is, is basically it is a record of what has transacted and then the chain is the history of all those transactions when the blocks connect together. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Speaker 5: Yes I agree. When when did you start your Bitcoin journey? Like when?

₿itcoin ₿ull: So I started in 2021 but I I had no clue what I was doing. I was in and out.

Speaker 5: What was your first purchase? When did you first purchase Bitcoin?

₿itcoin ₿ull: It was 2021. I don't remember what the number was, but I mean my my accountant's not happy with me right now.

Speaker 5: When did you when did you start to try to learn about it, like read up about it or ask questions?

₿itcoin ₿ull: It took me from 2021 to basically 20, late fall 2023 to really start understanding and then no, even later than that. So I really started to think seriously about putting some serious money in in like.

Speaker 3: The.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Winter of 2025.

Speaker 5: OK, so the reason why I say this, I'm asking this is because it's gonna take some time. So don't like like be so hard on yourself to say how I'm trying to grab everything. There's been been people like I've been here for like 8 years now, right? Almost nine years. But The thing is, I still don't understand everything. There's so many things that it just keeps on going because it depends on how deep you want to immerse yourself into. So don't beat up yourself. You have to take time to continue to educate yourself and depend on how far you want to go. Then the more you know. Like for me, I think I've reached a point after 2021 where it was just too much. I was like, man, I've been studying this for like years since two, 2017, right? I'm like, and then of course that you're not, you don't have free time all the time to do this. As I at some point I was just like, you know, I, I can't go any further 'cause they talk about even more deep stuff. And like as I met more people on Bitcoin Twitter, I'm like, damn, these guys even know more deeper. Oh, I do. I can't. I just can't do it right. So I stopped where I believe that this is all what I understand and it's OK.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, like for for me, Tal, for me, the whole blockchain's part of it. I just, I took it for granted. I just said, you know what, Like it's, it's complicated. I don't understand that part of it, but I'm taking it for granted that everybody else who does and then and you listen to them and you're like, OK, they get it. So I'm just going to kind of follow them. It's not really, it doesn't affect my belief in Bitcoin itself and where I think it's going to go like as far as the asset itself. But it's nice now to just kind of now that I'm in it and it's this nice to understand it. I don't. No one really needs to understand that part as much, but it's nice to understand.

Speaker 5: Yeah, like some people actually read the code. Like you can go to the Internet and you could download right the repo. You can look into the source code and.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Let them, but we wouldn't know anything about that because we don't. We're not coders.

Speaker 5: Like no, it's just.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Numbers and mumbo jumbo for us.

Speaker 5: No, no, no, no. Of course it's mumbo jumbo to you, right? But there are people like me who say, hey, if I want to read a code, I can go and sue a code or they call it a class. You can go into look it up function, right? And that's what.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm saying when I said we're taking it for granted, I'm going I trust Tao, that Tao understands it and Tao is a guy I trust.

Speaker 5: Only trust for love or.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No. But I mean as far as that part of it like that is it's not as critical thing to understand as the asset itself is.

Speaker 5: And for the record, I don't even read that much of the code. I only read a few things because there was some important thing that we were discussed on one point. But other than that, I don't know anything beyond that. I don't know anything about mining about, you know, how people do the tweet the A6 to fine tune it or group creating a template, the blog, blah, blah, blah, all the whole freaking the cost stratum, which is like with the server for the miners and everything is like that in itself. There is another freaking aspect right where like hey, it's like a mining.

Speaker 2: That's where you got to trust Gen. X.

Speaker 5: Right. Mining pools, like there's just so many areas. I'm like, dude, I can't keep up. I just couldn't do it right. And so don't beat up yourself.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah. I think for newbies like me, we just need to understand that the blockchain or so blocks are basically just your like your statement you get from your bank that shows all the withdrawals and deposits. But it's for everybody in the world who has Bitcoin and the chain, it just chains them all together from from a conception to forever.

Speaker 5: Right. And approximately 10 minutes, approximately 10 minutes, right. So we need to if.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Someone takes out, you know, 5050 Bitcoin. We can see exactly what address did it. You just can go on the blockchain and you can see what transaction transpires. You want to know something cool Greek when you send Bitcoin and it gives you a transaction. I I don't know if it's called ID or hash, I forget off top of my head, but you could go to Memple. That's space and there's a little search thing in there in the top right hand corner. You can put that transaction ID in there and it'll bring you right to the block and no matter what time period to show you the transaction at that day and time, right. So when we're talking about moving money or Bitcoin from your exchange to your wallet, what happens is if you pay for the faster speed, the the computers out there, the miners will use you. It's just moving you up in the line. All that all that is, is moving you up in the line. If there's a line fast pass, it's like a fast pass at Disney World. Well, well, only because the only reason, the only difference is, yeah, you could kind of look at it like a fast pass, but not really. All it does is it tells the bus driver how much you're willing to pay and and the bus driver decides, he says you know what, he's willing to pay more than the other people. So I want him on the bus. So they really have fast pass. The bus driver is the one that decides who comes out of but but it's the bus driver based on what you're willing to pay. But will the bus driver ever decide to pick someone who paid less than someone who paid more? Yeah. When there's no more people paying more. And it's up to him and it's up to him. Absolutely. Right. So he'll basically, but I mean, like a minor is gonna say, OK, who's giving me the most money 1st? And then I'm just gonna go down the list and whoever's the next most and then the next most and the cheapest guys at the bottom. Yeah. And then you then you know what happens next? Then the bus pulls up and it holds 100 people, but there's only 50 people waiting online. Then what? You can't charge that premium no more. So now there's no longer a premium everybody that's in and now you have to or or do you not just wait for the next block? You wait 10 more minutes.

Speaker 5: No, no, as a bus driver, you don't wanna wait, man. You wanna generate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, but what if he says this bus is full, bro, You're gonna have to wait for the next block and that's 10 minutes away.

Speaker 5: Correct. And it yes it can approximately 10 minutes, may not be exactly, just depends. Yep.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But am I on the right track as to say now?

Speaker 5: Like once you are.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Gotcha.

Speaker 5: Yes.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK, so that explains how that works. And I thought, I thought when, when, when you guys were talking about that, I thought it was like guys at computers, like, you know, computer geeks who were sitting there going, oh, look, this the Greek wants to transfer money.

Speaker 5: Should we? Have you seen? Have you seen YouTube videos of Bitcoin mining? If you haven't, just search.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It I've seen the like I've seen the the warehouses of the actual miners that are liquid cool. They're like these massive fucking mining facilities. I've seen that. So so it like for example, for Trump's kid there who has ABCT and he's he's been posting his his big warehouse of miners there. So those are miners that are in deciding on these decisions like.

Speaker 5: Constructing a block.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right, every single even even even Bitcoin bulls miner is there. So just to make it just to make it a little more clear, the there's obviously somebody behind running the miners right. So most people like me, I'm I'm mine Bitcoin with commercial miners, right, there's so there's like another level to it, right. So I'm trying to think of the best way to explain it. So you know how you got knots, right? A normal person like me could mine using knots and I could personally pick the transactions like we're talking. Hold on a second. I've heard this before, someone says are you a knots guy or are you a what's the other one?

Speaker 5: Core.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK, so I don't know what that means.

Speaker 5: Yeah, so.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think, Oh no, stay the hell away from that discussion.

₿itcoin ₿ull: We should stay away from that. It gets more in depth, I mean, but without getting too in depth with it, like what the fuck does that mean? Because I well, the only reason I was going that route is because people people running knots. They were river they a normal person could actually pick like we're talking of. So I don't know the other companies.

Speaker 5: Let me explain.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, you got to like break it down, dumb it right down. Like what the fuck is it?

Speaker 5: Remember.

Speaker 3: If you guys, if you guys dump this on three.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Like listen.

Speaker 5: I don't know, listen.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I tie knots. I'm on my.

Speaker 5: Very high level.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Shoelaces I tie knots.

Speaker 5: OK, I'm I'm gonna do.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Just stick with that. Great. That's the answer right there.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm trying to get, I'm trying to let you guys understand how like dumb I am, OK?

Speaker 5: No, I'll dumb it down. Very high level massacres.

Speaker 3: Yeah, they're massacres. They hate you.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's OK, I don't mind. I don't mind because it's interesting and I'll decide, you know what I want to take away from like.

Speaker 5: I'm a dumb it down, super simple. OK? Remember earlier I mentioned two computers? One computer is a validator and one computer is a minor. Remember that right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Correct. So that's.

Speaker 5: What you're talking about? OK. OK. Yeah, you're talking about nodes.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Now you're talking about nodes, no?

Speaker 5: No, hang on, hang on, I'll say one. No, hang on, I'll say there's one. Is a validator.

₿itcoin ₿ull: If you're running a number one, you're a validator. Great, great. You gotta let them talk though to them. What's?

Speaker 5: The pointer. So there's two things right? A validator and a minor. OK, now the validator, like it's a node, you can call it a node, whatever people call it, node, validator, whatever, OK, that computer, right? In order for you to validate blocks, you need to install software. OK, now there's different versions of a software, right? It could be version one, version 2, version 3 all the way up to version 20. Now on top of the version, people can modify, right, The software, they may tweak it slightly to behave a little bit differently. So one of the original software, right? The no validator software, they call it core, right? Bitcoin Core. And they have a certain version, right? 1-2, whatever, like 20, whatever. 30 OK, so that's one software that you can install into your validator, right? Installing Core. Now there's another group of people that says, you know what? We don't write the way this software is implemented or is running the way it's running. So they decide to take that code and they modified it slightly. OK, they modify it slightly and they say, no, we want it to run this way. And when they modify that code, they named it something else different, right? So they took core, they modify the code slightly, and they named it knots. OK, now you have two software that you can run on your no validator, right? We say core and knots.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 4: But there's.

Speaker 5: Not one we're not going to go into.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Exactly is 1 less efficient or or is?

Speaker 5: So yeah, that's worse than the other. Just going to get to, that's exactly what it's what that's going to get to, right. We're not going to go into what the change entails because that's going to be a whole different discussion. Just know that you can have different types of no software like core knots. There could be even one more they call it called knobs, but there's so many different.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK, but both of them still are valid and they validate, right?

Speaker 5: OK. The reason why they're still valid is because they still adhere to the protocol, to Bitcoin protocol that they only change this slightly, right? They didn't change it so drastic that it doesn't follow consensus.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So it's like, it's like the Mac versus the PC kind of thing. They both work, but you know some people like one over the other.

Speaker 5: Yeah, the kind of, but not really.

Speaker 3: No.

Speaker 5: Right, it's the same node, but what software do you want to run? You want to run the software that going to run the this way, or you want to run the software that runs it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But in the end, it's still validating the node. It's still validating the.

Speaker 5: Blocks, so they're they're well if.

Speaker 3: They're all if they're both.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Coming to the same conclusion at the end, then it would be the same thing. I mean, it doesn't really matter, it's a preference thing.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that gets very deep. I mean that.

Speaker 3: It's a.

Speaker 5: War. Really, it's a year long war.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Gotcha. So really for us that corners were new, we don't really need to worry.

Speaker 5: Even though I gave up, man, like I gave up on that one. I'm like, you know, just do whatever you guys want, man. I don't fucking care exactly, but.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's helpful, right? That's helpful for us and now when we hear it.

Speaker 5: Legitimate point. Yeah, both of us have legitimate reasons. And that's what we call decentralization, right? Because, like, everybody's going to have a certain opinion about how it flows, and both sides has very good ideas.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So. So without getting into a deep, which one is the more decentralized?

Speaker 4: 1.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Like who's who's fighting who? Who thinks they're the more decentralized over the other?

Speaker 5: Well that's still subjective, right? Because some are saying this is more decentralized versus another that's subjective. Now then you're literally getting into it. There's no one answer because that answer may not be something that another person agrees with. They say no, your reasoning does not mean.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. So that reminds me of like this whole bit 110 thing.

Speaker 5: That's why it's a year long, multi year argument that continues.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But you know what I mean? Like.

Speaker 4: Isn't that supposed to?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Happen with this whole bit 110 bullshit.

Speaker 3: No Greek. Greek that's a that's a different situation related, but it's it's a very different situation of men pool policy.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But you've got, you know.

Speaker 5: Even bit 110 Gen. XI don't even know what it is dude, because there's too much to keep up with man. And so I don't even know what the hell bit 110 is referring to. Like maybe I one day.

Speaker 3: I'm not having. I'm not having.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I just just to sum it up simple without getting in all the technicals is 1 is allowing pitchers on the blockchain inscribed in the blockchain. That's pretty much the way to sum it up. The other one doesn't 1 doesn't allow, I'm sorry, and one allows people to do whatever they want with the blockchain if they want to pay more to add things to it. That's pretty much the easy way to sum it up, but it does it. It has nothing to do with the Bitcoin blockchain. It's a different blockchain or is it all. It's pretty much just adding something to transactions. That's pretty much.

Speaker 3: I'm not. I, I, I'm gonna go kick myself in the nuts, right, you guys?

Speaker 5: Can't. Yeah, no more this one. Hey, you can't tell me about the.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Shirt Janet, tell me about the shirt.

Speaker 2: Wait, wait. No.

Speaker 3: No, no.

Speaker 2: Before you tell him about the shirt you should Greek. You should meet Hector bro.

Speaker 3: Hector spoke.

₿itcoin ₿ull: He spoke briefly and then. But Hector. Yeah, remember I.

Speaker 2: Asked him if his name was Greek. I will. Oh, I didn't hear that.

Speaker 3: Man, but I could, I can, I can guess that he had a comment and then he was kind of judging the level of conversation on whether he bothered to.

₿itcoin ₿ull: He's he's higher level, he's he's not a he's a higher intelligence than the Greek.

Speaker 4: For fuck sake.

Speaker 2: Who? Who? Who are you talking about?

Speaker 5: Like, like, like everybody, Hector.

Speaker 2: Oh, Hector.

Speaker 4: He just throws up e-mail.

Speaker 2: Actually talk because he has no bulk.

Speaker 5: But that applies to everybody Greek though, right? Everybody's higher level than you.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, exactly. But at least you know, I, I, I enjoy asking dumb questions because if there's someone in the audience who is afraid to ask, at least I'll take the heat.

Speaker 5: I mean you literally do you literally name yourself the dumb Greek so.

Speaker 2: It's in his username man.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Absolutely and that, you know, listen, I have no pride in saying I'm smart. No, it's, it's it's great asking questions because I, I feel like anything with bitcoins not dumb. Everybody learns a different, you know, there's.

Speaker 2: So much to learn. Like every year, there's.

Hector Lopez: Everything something freaking.

Speaker 2: New I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Personally love talking about.

Speaker 3: If you just piled in, if you piled in all your money and you weren't asking these questions, that would be dumb.

Speaker 2: Although you should Greek just change your username to the Greek man because it's like subconscious programming with like copywriting and stuff like people actually think you're you.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Just you just do it and they'll let you or what's?

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they'll let you. They'll let you. You lose your blue Jack for a bit, but you'll get it back.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I see. OK, I'll do it.

Speaker 2: Because then, you know, you come up on the stage as the Greek and then when people see your username and then you'll ask questions and it'll be sick. But then they see your username and they're like, Oh well, who's going to listen to this dumb guy? I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Appreciate that, man. I appreciate that. That's see, that's fucking some solid alpha. Thank you. I will do that. Tom, I appreciate you for spending so much time that you're normally not in spaces like that and you put a lot of time. I think this is what happened. When the bull comes out in tower, when towel turns bold, this is what happened. That's what I'm saying. He literally stood here. I was even sure if the space was gonna stay open. He was like one of the first ones in here and we just started talking and explaining Bitcoin and he just literally took all this time to like educate people in here, even we're not, you know, many people in here.

Speaker 2: He's a gangster, man. You know what? You know what Tao does? And I figured it out, Bo. I figured out what Tao does. He goes into the bear chat and he's bullish, and then he goes into the bullish chats and he's bearish. That's what he does. That's what he does.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Speaking of people that sprayed at teaching things, I see, Toma, I see.

Speaker 5: No, no.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hold on a second, Tao, I just want to say Toma, if you feel like talking, come up to talk about Bitcoin, you're more than welcome. He's he's he's another great to talk about this. Oh, go ahead. Sorry, Tom.

Speaker 2: Tomer's Tomer's a genius. Go ahead, Tom.

Speaker 5: No, I'm just saying that, you know, I'm just taking a break guys from like the education side of Bitcoin and, and it was, it's really hard. So that's why I really appreciate the a lot of people who continue that sort of education. Like these past years. I was just more just having fun and trolling here and there and not the education aspect. But there's sometimes where I do do feel that I just want to jump in because, you know, it just like the situation seems to fit and calls for it. And when someone's genuinely curious, right, about learning, then, you know, I would put some time into like kind of helping in that regard.

₿itcoin ₿ull: And Speaking of that, if anybody, we got rugs. So now everybody's here is like before, but if anybody's interested in learning and want to know anything more about Bitcoin, the blocking, anything that has to do with Bitcoin, everybody should be following Tomer because Tomer, he knows a lot. He teaches a lot. He's constantly on Bitcoin today teaching everybody and he loves speaking about it. I follow him and every time I see him on, I try to go to a space and he's at because he's constantly teaching Bitcoin and everything Bitcoin and he knows so much. So if you want to learn anything, follow him. He's a great person to follow.

Speaker 5: And and also Tomer makes some awesome videos.

Speaker 3: Too and and and.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Tomer came into the Greek space once and it was amazing. Was like the best space I ever did. I only did 3.

Speaker 4: Wow, thank you guys. I just popped into them to say hi. Not even to say hi, just to listen in. But you invited me up and then said nice things, so I really appreciate it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, you even. I remember you dogged up that one time when who was in there? I don't know if it was Bailey or somebody from NACA. And he, he had, you know, he had pretty much the Bitcoin communities, you know, thought in mind and, and pretty much went at him when everybody was not. He didn't go at him, but he, you know, he challenged them when everybody was pretty much, you know, all for what he was saying and and he didn't want new people to, you know, have the wrong perception of of of getting into something that could be not in their best interests is the best way. I guess I could say it.

Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I, you know, I try to, I try to bring reason to these discussions and, and facts. It's odd that Bitcoin doesn't, isn't just filled with people who are mostly about facts and reasons, you know, facts and logic. And we end up with some some people who believe in magic or or just in bravado and making confidence statements without actual backing. So sometimes you're feeling.

Speaker 2: Like that Chalmath video guy, that chalmath guy, that Chalmath guy who's talking bullshit about Bitcoin which he.

Speaker 3: Does he's just mad? No. Back in the day he said he was going to buy the Hamptons and turn it into like a community resort with Bitcoin and then he shit coined on everybody and he never did that. So he's just doing his next.

Speaker 4: I don't even know who you guys are talking about.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I didn't see it either.

Speaker 2: I.

Speaker 3: Think Shamas said he was going to buy the Hamptons with all of his Bitcoin? It's like a while ago.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I I'm just trying to get through life. I'm not trying to buy the Hamptons. I don't even know. The only thing I know about the Hamptons is from an episode of Seinfeld that I saw where George pretended lied about having a place in this in the Hamptons to his deceased ex fiance's parents. I could talk about Seinfeld for hours too, but I know we prefer to talk about Bitcoin here.

Speaker 3: It's a Paula Hapatia, by the way.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So who's trying to?

Speaker 2: I yeah, the Paula, the people.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Are trying to explain to Greek.

Speaker 4: Oh, that Chamath I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Thought you guys, Chamath.

Speaker 4: Yeah, the Chamath. Yeah, the giant phony baloney. And it's like it's, you know, he's charming and he's well spoken and he's rich. And so people assume that he's honest with them. But he, I think he got, I don't know exactly all he, he got rich. He invested in Facebook with good timing and then Amazon with good timing is the popular story. But he did all these Spacs. And I know my, my broker at one point got me to invest in one. And that was like a rug pull right out of the gates. It was like, you know, I invest in the IPO and it's down 80% like the day after. And eventually it came back to par with what it was worth after years of no returns. And I was like, OK, get the hell out of that thing. But I think guys like Chamath, I don't know for sure, but I think they believe their own bullshit. You know, like he sounds smart. He sounds smart to himself. Nobody's nobody really calls him out on anything. And he's rich. So he's, he's pretty convinced that he knows what he's talking about, but he's, he's always plugging something that he's got insider information on or, you know, he's, he's an early, he pre minded, if you will, or he got in early and then he's he's plugging it. He's got a big platform to do it. And until all his followers are fully milked, he can continue to milk them. Seems to me to be the case.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, so he was trying to explain transactions and blocks to Greek a little while ago, and I think we got the point across. But yeah, you know, it's a, it's a lot of moving parts and a lot of.

Speaker 4: What? Well, what was Greek's big question? Or if if you still.

₿itcoin ₿ull: He's, he's not, he's still here. He's, oh, actually he's down to listener now. But you got, you got to be patient with him because he jumps around a little bit. Sure, if you want to come back up Greek. If not, we can move on, but Tomer definitely is able to explain things a little better than I can.

Speaker 4: I, I love educating people about Bitcoin and I and we're definitely coming around to a period, I think I've been through three cycles of this where a lot of new people come in and they get somewhat informed, but also somewhat misinformed. And the whole thing just doesn't sit in a in balanced state, in a integrated state in their mind. And then they need a couple of questions to kind of set them straight. I'm reminded back when the clubhouse was a big thing, there were, there were people going around saying like, you know, in Bitcoin, it's not just one person checks your transaction 2, but two people check each transaction. And I'm like, well, that's not the way it works. It's like every single person on the network checks every single transaction. And then suddenly things started to make sense for people. So it looks like Greek is back.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Up why don't you do spaces tomer everyone to like educational spaces since you like.

Speaker 4: I like to go on I've I just in this past six months I've done 55 Bitcoin. Today's where I've done something significantly like I've taken over the stage and presented a lesson about something like the first one I did was what is Shaw 256 and how is it used in Bitcoin and why is it so important? Because it's it's used in chaining the blocks together in the blockchain, it's used in proof of work, it's used in identifying the blocks and the transactions, and it's used in making the tree of transactions that go in the block header. So I did a whole lesson on that.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Do you have a link where say for instance at a reference and we could just click and go back to that town for?

Speaker 4: I don't have one handy.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Something where we could just because even if we point people to and say, hey, you want to learn about Shot 256, go listen to this spaces at this time, this day, that would be cool to point people in that direction.

Speaker 4: Yeah, because it's a good, it's a good idea.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I don't know what that is I'm.

Speaker 4: Putting together this information really to ultimately develop, I guess what would be a course, but doing it on spaces is a little tricky because you don't have the, you don't have visual tools, right? So you have to use people's imaginations. Anyhow, Greek, ask me a question. Ask me your question.

Speaker 3: So the way it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Started was I was saying OK, when I had when I buy Bitcoin on exchange and then I want to send it to my wallet, you know what happens? I know I press send and it goes into cyberspace and I thought there was like little guys at computers that would verify it, but I've learned that I'll.

Speaker 4: Tell you exactly, yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I've learned that it's not that, but you gotta, you gotta. He got the point now. Let him. He'll go go through the whole process now.

Speaker 4: Well, no Greek finish. Finish your thought on what you think happens and I'll tell you yeah, what I think I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Learned is that no, it's not that. It's basically that there's computer miners. They're computers that basically confirm that they're not humans that's sitting at a computer. There's the nodes there that.

Speaker 4: OK.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That decide, OK, Yep, Greek paid extra money for this to happen faster, so let's bump him up and get him into a block. And that's how it works. And that's kind of how it all started.

Speaker 4: OK. So like you're, you're pretty close there and you may have an accurate enough vision. What ends up happening like when you, when you ask, let's say Coinbase to send money to your, to send bitcoins to your address. Coinbase has addresses which have coins in them. And so they craft a transaction that that says send, you know, destroy the coins that are at this address, which we own, and create a equal or lesser amount at. Greek's address and another one of our addresses, if it's changed up, let's say you were getting .1 Bitcoin from them and they had an address that had .15 Bitcoin. They would, they would spend that unspent transaction so it'd become spent and they would be sending .1 to you and .5 to themselves. They'd be creating 2 new outputs. And they sign that and they leave a little bit of fee in there for the miners to mine and they send it out on the Bitcoin network. And the Bitcoin network is all these peer-to-peer nodes, and they all check to make sure that the transaction is valid, that it is spending an unspent transaction that's not spending coins that don't exist or coins that have already been spent by looking at the blockchain. So everyone does that and they make sure that the transaction has a valid signature on it, which is what you generate with the private key corresponds to the address that it was spent from. And they relayed all over the network and, and every node in the network basically ends up with a copy of this transaction even before it's in a block. That's what's called the mem pool. It ends up in their mem pools and miners assemble blocks of of these unconfirmed transactions and, and, and they all are hashing away trying to do the proof of work to win the next block and one of them eventually wins it. And, and if your transaction happened to be in that block, that they transmit that block to everybody and everybody says, OK, this block is the latest block in the Bitcoin blockchain. And it includes A transaction that spent .15 Bitcoin from that address and sent .1 to this address and point five point O 5 to that address. And that .1 is yours. And it's now part of the blockchain. And the blockchain is permanent. And so it never go, it never goes away. So that may give you a little bit more context, but I think you've got the right idea. The second lecture that I actually gave was about what nodes do on the network and what and what function they serve. And I've, I've just given a very brief explanation. Nodes basically store the blockchain and they relay transactions and blocks as the, as those are sent out on the network by other, by other nodes. And you know, when you hit send, your node sends something out, but there, there aren't people who physically relay it. It's there's a this like mesh network of, of nodes that are connected to each other all over the world and they, they randomly connect to one another. So you know when you fire up your node, it'll connect by default to 10 other nodes at random on the network, and each one of those is connected to 9 other nodes on the network, and each of those is connected to 9 so.

Speaker 5: Correct SO.

Speaker 4: Information relays really quickly.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So for that, those are actual people. They're, they're human beings who have a computer set up with the software on it. So every time they fire up their software, it updates as a node it, it updates to validate the latest transaction. So it's people's computers that are doing that, not mining computers. It's just a basic computer with the software, so anyone can become one of those nodes.

Speaker 4: That's right. And every node that doesn't that doesn't prune it's data actually stores the entire blockchain, the entire history of every transaction that's ever occurred on the Bitcoin blockchain. And so when you first launch a node, it it does what's called the initial block download IBD, and it starts with a genesis block and then gets which is block #0 and then it gets block number one from some other node. It retrieves it and it checks that the proof of work is done on it, and it checks that there's only valid transactions in it. There's only one transaction in block number one. It's Satoshi binding it himself and generating 50 coins and there's nobody to send any coins to yet. And then gets block number two and three and four and five up until it gets to block 930, whatever 1000 where we're on today. And it gets each transaction in them and it verifies each one that it spent only unspent coins or was the initial coin creation transaction in each block that the proof of work checks out. This is a whole complicated explanation of how the proof of work threshold is set and and how you demonstrate that it's met. It has something. It has a lot to do with shot 256 and, and everything is verified. So everyone ends up with an identity perfect, a perfect fidelity duplicate. That's every piece of physics and math inside of it is checked. And then you can go on from there. And if you, if you disconnect from the network for a day or two or a week or a year, when you rejoin, you just pick up where you left off and you, you do more downloading of blocks that you missed while you were away. And you can. And if you own Bitcoin, then you know what, you know which UTX OS you can spend, which unspent transactions that exists in the blockchain, you can spend. And when we've transmit them and when you want to spend some, you transmit it out to the network and other nodes collect it and relay it all around. And eventually and ends up eventually, I'm talking like in a fraction of a second, it ends up at a minors node and the miner will fit it into their block if, if there's space and it's pays a high enough fee. If not, it'll wait until you know, until there's fewer transactions in the queue and and it'll and when one of those miners wins it, they'll they'll keep the fee and your transaction will get added to the blockchain.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right, so then we saw this post today about how Eric Trump just purchased 11,298 more BTC miners to help protect the network and lead the future of Bitcoin in America. What does that mean?

Speaker 4: Well, anything that you hear from anybody who's a politician or a direct relative of a politician is usually exaggerated, exaggerated. But one thing that is true is the more mining power that there is, like if there's 11,000 new machines mining, it makes the network that much more secure. And the best way I can explain it is in order to delete a previous block of Bitcoin and replace it with something else. Like let's let's say in the example we're talking, let's say Greek was getting his .1 Bitcoin from Coinbase and that he got it in a block. That's a pretty good promise. But there is a way that that block could, you know, the Coinbase could, after it was confirmed in the blockchain, they could actually try to re spend that transaction but send it to somebody else. And if if another block was mined at the same height as the block that Greek got it at and then another one was added to it and neither of those contained his transaction, but it actually spent it somewhere else, then Greeks would no longer be in the blockchain. But the difficulty to do that is you have to overwhelm the network with hash power over what's being done. So it's like all the energy that's deployed against mining from when a transaction entered the blockchain is what's going to be needed to rewrite history. And there's a, there's a bit of a lesson that I have to give to explain how this works. But you can imagine if let's just say for easy math, this is not accurate, but let's say there's 1000 megawatts of energy being used to mine Bitcoin and and you, your transaction got mined 6 blocks ago. So there's been 1000 megawatts time and it's ended taken 10 minutes each. So there's been 1001 thousand MW hours of, of electricity to protect your transaction and someone would need to come within the next 10 minutes with 1000 MW hours of you know, or like 66 * 10 minutes of, of, of megawatts and, and create 6 new blocks starting at the starting from the one that is now 6 blocks old and recreate all of them because.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Bitcoin could measure the.

Speaker 4: Energy that goes into each block, that's what the proof of work actually is. It's a statistical measurement of energy and and only the most proof of work chain is considered valid by the network. So if, if you want to attack a transaction, undo a transaction that was confirmed, say 6 blocks ago, that's kind of like the same people say you have to have six times as much energy and equipment as the rest of the network combined. And if you think about that like generally realistic factor, you would have to have billions and billions of dollars of equipment with access to hundreds or thousands of megawatts of energy to just undo one transaction. So it's like, it is the way that I put it and I think this is accurate. It's the most indestructible, imalleable thing that human beings have ever created. You can't, you can't make a change to it. You can add to it, but you can't change anything in the past in it. And the older the data is, the more unchangeable it is. So like if you wanted to change something in block number three, you know, and you would need more equipment and energy that's being used in the past 17 years and you'd need all that energy and equipment to be executed in 10 minutes versus what has been, you know, what's the word I'm I'm looking for cumulatively spent over the last 17 years. So the older your transaction is, the more secure it is. But even a transaction that's three or four blocks old is so secure that there the energy and equipment doesn't exist on earth to to double spend it. So like when you have a UTXO and you're the only person who knows this private key to it, you're defended by energy and math complexity that nothing can overwhelm. Like no army can come and change the blockchain. They, they just can't do it. It's a, it's a bunch of computers looking at the proof of work that's been that's been done. So you need the equipment and you need to do the proof of work and mathematically, nobody can reverse factor out a public key, a private key from a public key. So no one can generate A valid cryptographic signature. So you're you know, This is why that said that it's unseasonable, unconfiscated, able, whatever you will immalleable. But the more you understand this stuff, and This is why it's This is why I'm so passionate about teaching people how this works, because you can actually, if if you spent the time, the hour studying what shot 256 does, maybe, maybe it's up to three hours and then you spent some time understanding how all this information gets relayed around the network and how the blockchain gets constructed. You'd say, oh, there's like this is nuclear weapon proof, like you can't drop a nuclear bomb and destroy the Bitcoin blockchain because it's distributed all in copies all over the world. The whole thing, not the fragments of it, it, the network is connected peer-to-peer. So it's not like there's a central node that you can take out or a handful of central nodes that you could take out that would destroy it. The the IT uses very little data to send the information. So even on a very deteriorated network connection, which wouldn't even have to be the Internet, you can't stop it. The math that protects the ability to spend it is this elliptic curve cryptography thing, which is unbreakable. Although in theory if someone ever invented a powerful quantum computer, there might be an algorithm that might be able to forge a signature, but the signatures can't be forged to spend it. And once your entry is in the blockchain, that entry is in malleable, especially once it's a few blocks old, because the amount of energy required to spend it to somebody else is is overwhelming. It's overwhelming that nobody can disrupt that amount of energy and equipment.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So the American Bitcoin purchasing 11,298 more BTC miners to help protect the network is is that just like click bait marketing?

Speaker 4: I mean every every miner makes it like so the more mining equipment is there, the more energy that those miners are using and deploying, the more energy it require. It is required to attack the network. So mining does secure the network, right?

Speaker 5: Right. It's like but.

Speaker 4: When you look, it's not a patriotic thing. It's.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Not. But even if he didn't do this, if he didn't buy the 11298, it would still be almost impossible to create the energy to to break.

Speaker 4: It.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So it's just, it's really, it's not really.

Speaker 3: A major.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Point your bid acts did the same thing his miners did, just in a smaller fashion, right so.

Speaker 4: He's doing it not to protect the network. He's doing it to earn Bitcoin and so and like, and there's nothing wrong with that because it does protect the net. Like there's a quid pro quo here. Like if you want to earn Bitcoin by mining it, you have to put in honest proof of work, which protects every UTXO in the blockchain history. Every unspent transaction gets protected by the energy. So it's like it's a fair trade. I don't mine right now. I let other people do the mining for me and they get to earn the new bitcoins and I get extra protection for the security of my Bitcoin from it to the point where it's so secure that it's the most secure thing on earth. Literally, you're aiming it's easier to break into Fort Knox than it is to steal a Bitcoin. Like you need to change the blockchain or reverse engineer the digital signature algorithm. So that's.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. So when you hear these guys talk about, oh, there's you know, 14 or 24,000 nodes out there and all someone has to do is buy, you know, 25,000 computers and run their own nodes and they can compromise the that network. Like that's all.

Speaker 4: Bullshit. No they they have to. Someone would need to manufacture and produce more mining equipment than is currently deployed to honestly mine. And that's more than 25,000 nodes. That's data centers upon data centers that are using tons of electricity and tons of hyper specialized equipment that all it does is shot 2 double shot 256, which is the mining algorithm for Bitcoin. And so you have to build all the specialized equipment, not not enough of it exists in the world and deploy it against energy. That's what secures the integrity of the blockchain. You as a node, are keeping a valid backup copy of the entire blockchain, but you're not putting in the proof of work, and your node is verifying, not doing the work. It verifies the work because it doesn't take much energy to verify the work. Very little, but it takes a lot of energy to do the work because it's so competitive.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So if they want to take over the network, they would literally have to have 51% of all the miners that are out there in the whole hash rate. This is huge. Each miner gives different hash rate, so 51% of the hash of.

Speaker 4: 51% of the hash of the hash rate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. Which is enormous, right? Yeah.

Speaker 4: Which is it's enormous. It's distributed like Bitcoin, uses more energy than Poland or Switzerland or something. I can't remember what country they said it uses. So it like if that's how much energy you have to have in order to like, and you have to beat that, right? So you have to build a whole Switzerland plus some other small country worth of energy and get all the equipment that exists in order to be able to attack it. And that's not a like that allows you to maybe, you know, pull off 1 attack. And as soon as people see that you're doing that, they're going to say, well, you know, the shot 256, the double shot 256 algorithm has been compromised. We're going to move to. We're gonna have to do a hard.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Everybody runs Bitcoin goes a shit and it is a waste of money to do.

Speaker 4: That and then you bring all those machines and all they can do is double shot 256 become worthless. So it's like the incentive structure, the incentive to buy all this equipment to double spend What like if you have 51% of the equipment, why don't you mine honestly? And you can earn 51% of the block rewards and the value of Bitcoin will go up more because Bitcoin will be now twice as secure as it was before. And that's, you know, rather than you'll try to undermine Bitcoin and Bitcoiners.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Will be. That's a very that's a very good point. Brilliant. That's a very good point. Oh my God.

Speaker 4: Now, the design of this thing is so. It's so, so brilliant. The more you understand it, the more like awe and respect you have for what Satoshi came up with and more confidence and conviction you have.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So I'm gonna ask you one one more stupid question, Shaw 256. Is that in the white paper?

Speaker 4: It's mentioned. It's mentioned like 67 times in the white paper. It stands for Secure hash algorithm of 256 bit length. Like I'll I'll try to find.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Your is it a software or is it?

Speaker 4: So it's an open source algorithm. It's it's, it's, it's how how can I give this to you really quickly? It's an open source algorithm created by the NSA and the National Institute of Standards back in the maybe as early as the 1970s. But it's, it's really battle tested. It's been around, I have a whole hour and a half long lecture on what exactly it does and what it is, but it basically takes it creates A digest a 256 bit or 32 byte file out of any digital file. So you can put, you can put in like the a digital file that's the DVD of Star Wars, or you can put in the entire Library of Congress that if it's digitized into a single file, or you can put in your name. And no matter what you put in, no matter how big it is, the thing that you get out is 32 bytes, 256 bits. And but it's a unique signature because 256 bits, that's like 100111, that's 256.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Characters can I can I jump into this just dumb it down a little bit yeah so pretty much if you had something digital right and and you and you and you want to now I'm I'm all stuck let.

Speaker 4: Let me try to finish then you know, so it it, it creates a unique for every input file. It creates a unique digest. It's a very short, a very short and easy to verify number, easy for computers to compare number that's unique to each thing. How it works is a little bit too complicated to explain, but suffice it to say it's a very quick algorithm that you can take a fingerprint of any digital file. And so that way if like if if I send you a copy of a block and I say this is it's shot 256, it's hash and you you can write I can, you can run the shot 256 algorithm on the file yourself and see if you get the same number. And if you do, it means we had the same starting point because No2 starting points will give you the same ending point. There's no collisions between the two. And so it's a way for everyone to verify across the network that they have all these same things. And there's also really clever ways you, you can, you clever things you can do with them, which which is you can you can set a threshold for the target of what value it has to be lower than. And that's how the proof of work works. You won't understand this with this very brief explanation I'm giving you now where you can also.

₿itcoin ₿ull: See your lecture on this was that.

Speaker 4: Posted somewhere it's it's on Bitcoin today. I don't know if maybe maybe if you search Bitcoin today Comer Strolite Shaw 256 on Google you'll find it. It's I can't even remember when I gave the lecture. I want to say sometime like in November or October was maybe the first one that I did on shot 256. You know what, this I Doctor Mark, let me just find his last name. I just did a a podcast with him not long ago that was based off of this and there was a video on it that actually went a little viral. Doctor Mark Kramer let let me let me just go. I'll I'll find. That podcast, it's, it's not perhaps as thorough, but it's actually pretty good too. So let me just go to his profile.

Speaker 3: Hey, well, well, summer looks for that Greek. The last link I sent you is a it's an old video. It's about 12 years old, but it's a good one. And it's it's really about Merkel trees and that's going to be way over your head. But the concepts that you have learned about, you'll see how those play together, what a what a hash is. There's actually a demo. It'll put together a lot of the terminology that you've heard in acronyms. So I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Appreciate that, thank you guys. So a transaction it'll turn it into a hash and if any little thing changed on that transaction, even if it was like the slightest thing, the hash will be different. But if it stayed the same, the hash will always be the same no matter what.

Speaker 4: OK, I'm going to share in the nest right now. I found it Bitcoin tonight. That's where it is. OK, so in in the nest is a 70 minute long interview that I did with with doctor Mark Kramer on what shot 256 is and how it works. And, and so hopefully it's a little bit better than it's, it's probably actually better than the thing that I did on Bitcoin today, now that I think of it, because it was my second effort at it. So I, I think that'll, that'll explain a lot of these things for you. If you can take the time. And I really do recommend that you try to find the time. You may have to go through it two or three times and you, you may find other resources that you find are really good. What is Shaw 256 and how does, how is it used in Bitcoin? Once you understand this, you will really be able to reason about how the network works. Once you have that and you understand what, no, what a node does and what you do when you create a, a transaction, you'll, you won't be able to understand the system completely. And that is, you know, that's not a lot of work. Because imagine if I told you, I want you to explain or understand how the banking system works. Like just for you to understand how, how if you write a check to somebody, how does that thing clear? Where do they take it in? What happens to that piece of paper? What happens to the data? And then how do you how do you how do they know that the money gets taken out of one place and put in another place and is author like you, you could have to you could work for banks for years and not even understand that one little simple thing. But with Bitcoin, it's basically just sending around transactions and blocks of transactions. And if you do just understand Shaw 256 and what a digital signature is, that's those are those are the whole building blocks like Satoshi took shot 256 elliptic curve signatures and peer-to-peer networking and and a little bit of duct tape and glue and put them all together and built Bitcoin out of that. So if you understand these few things, you will be able to reason about and understand how the network works. And then you'll be able to see all these really clever, you know, the, how the incentives all align. Like what I mentioned about if you're, if you're a minor and you end up with a lot of mining equipment, enough to attack the network, you're still better off honestly mining and winning the rewards than using all that equipment to undermine the price of Bitcoin quickly and and force a hard fork that's going to make all that equipment that you have worthless and useless.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So I was talking to a guy today at the range who it's one of the pros there. And he was like, so, so how is Bitcoin different that like, how do you know Bitcoin's still going to be around? And how is Bitcoin different than all of these other coins out there? And you know, I was like, listen, man, it would take me like a few hours to to give this subject justice. But let me put it really simply for you. There are no other proof of work chains that have anywhere near the hash power supporting it as Bitcoin. And the vast majority of the other things that you think of as being a crypto are proof of stake, meaning that they're extremely lightweight from an energy perspective and they can largely be rewritten if you have enough coins. And in the age of AI, they are likely to be attacked and be attacked quite easily. And so if you want to make a long term bet on anything in this ecosystem, bitcoins, basically the only somewhat or fully de risked asset that you can invest in for 5/10/15 years, You can basically close your eyes. You can ignore the price, you can ignore all the idiots on the Internet, you can ignore all the idiots on TV and you can just buy and hold these to, well, So what, what's going on right now? And I said, well, I don't know if you've ever how long you've been in markets, but occasionally sentiment turns negative and for reasons that don't necessarily have anything to do with fundamentals, the price can go down for some period of time. And I said, all things be equal, if you build a model that bitcoins going to go to 500,000 over the next five years or you think it's going to go to a million over the next 710 years or whatever, all things be equal, you would rather buy it at 100,000 than 120,000. And since it's impossible to know when it's going to go to 100 or 120,000 or go up or down from there, what I recommend is dollar cost averaging, which means just buy it all the time over some long period of time. Don't even think about the price. But I said that said, all things be equal, if you could buy it at 80 versus 100 and it ultimately goes to a million, I said that would be materially better. And I said if you could buy it at 65 or 60, that would be materially better. And I said one of the biggest illusions that people play on the Internet, these kid analysts and chart squigglers. And by the way, these people only come out and really beat their chest when things are going down, but they sell this fake illusion that you can, you can actually predict an event exactly when any asset price goes up or down. And so when things are going down, they say, look, I told you my indicator, my red line, my red dot, my RSI, my moving average. It told you that this was going to happen. And you're an idiot for not selling it. And you're an idiot for not understanding we're going lower. And I can just tell you from experience that over the last 10 years that like there have been literally 100 times I've seen on the Internet, and particularly on X where some chart squigglers said, for sure Bitcoins going to go lower. And then it didn't go lower or it went lower, but not low enough. And so they never got back in and they were not in position when, when the price turned around and, and went back up. And so I think it's really important to do what Tomer is doing. This is why I came up with just support Tomer because I think Tomer's not only one of the nicest people in Bitcoin, but one of the best educators. He really breaks it down. It makes it simple is to actually understand the fundamentals deeply enough that you no longer care so much about the price such that the price only matters in so much as you need to allocate today, right. If, if you, if you need to deploy $1,000,000 into Bitcoin today, certainly, yeah, you should be looking at the price. You should be asking is that a good price? Like will it go up or will it go down? I mean, again, you may not be able to know that, but you probably need to be somewhat price aware. If you don't need to allocate today or you don't need your cash back right to spend it on something outside of Bitcoin, then the price is largely irrelevant because the price is not necessarily an indicator of the fundamental quality of Bitcoin or anything that's happening on the network in any given point in time. And I would say right now, it's largely reflecting external factors that have nothing to do with Bitcoin. Things like government shutdowns, things like tariff policies in the US, things like immigration policy, things like, you know, the Fed and its positioning and how long it's going to be until they lower rates, right? Geopolitics, right? Like I can just tell you for a fact, if you sell Bitcoin because of drone attacks on any country or drone attacks from any country, then you just don't understand Bitcoin. You definitely don't understand as well as Tomer understands it because if you understood as well as Tomer understands that you would be buying more Bitcoin more rapidly every time some idiot is posting that you should sell Bitcoin because of some external geopolitical fanaticism that has nothing to do with the internal workings of Bitcoin and the thing that is likely to cause it to increase in value over long periods of time. So look, today was like not a bad day. I think if you ask people yesterday, when you looked at the S&P and the NASDAQ, you looked at sort of general sentiment and you looked at people's views on how quickly the US government or Israel are going to run out of weapons to defend itself against drone attacks from Iran and blah, blah, blah, blah. If you asked them that, you would have assumed that Bitcoin was going to open up at 60 K today and go straight to 50. But instead, if you woke up this morning early enough, it's just quietly making its way over 70 and then 71, and even went as high as almost 7374 K today. At a time when the people who scream bloody murder every time any minor thing happens in the world, we're telling you it was going to go lower. Because it turns out like Bitcoin just doesn't really care about that. Bitcoin largely functions on its own. It it follows its own set of rules, it it operates using its own architecture and in the way that Tomer has been describing. And that process is largely immune to any of these external factors that caused bad investors and bad traders to routinely liquidate assets at the wrong prices or be under positioned at the wrong times or pay way too much in taxes to avoid downside that is largely ephemeral and doesn't exist. It's something I like to say about the equity market all the time. But if you own a share of a stock and the stock goes down 10%, that doesn't necessarily mean that the value of the company went down 10%. And one way to see that is if you offered the CEO of that company 10% less than it traded yesterday for the whole company, guess what? It's going to be rejected because that is not actually the price for the whole company. That's just the price that often completely non fundamental and non economic actors are willing to transact on that price. And it could be because they sold a lot of call options, right? It it could be because they're running a multi legged pair trade that has nothing to do with that company, but that company is the short leg of the trade, right? It could be a number of different factors that have nothing to do with the value is because it turns out on most days, on most hours of most days, the price that anything is trading at isn't necessarily reflective of it's actual fundamental worth. The times that you find out where the real fundamental value is, is when on a day, for example, that one guy or one company wants to buy the whole company. That's when you get an offer and you get an article in the Wall Street Journal that says so. And so company is trying to buy XYZ company. And guess what? Do they ever pay 10% less than the day before when they make that offer? Have you ever seen an offer in the Wall Street Journal that says we're going to pay 10% less than what the price is trading? No, it's usually a 20 or 30% premium and sometimes with biotech companies substantially more than that because it turns out that the price that anyone on economic actor 1 high frequency trading firm or 1 short seller is willing to transact that for a certain amount of shares isn't necessarily the indicative value for the whole thing. And the same thing with Bitcoin. There are a lot of idiots, right? There are a lot of software investors. There are a lot of easily scared children. There are a lot of people reading tweets from chart squigglers and kid analysts who've never made money in markets. But for some reason, when the market goes.

Speaker 4: Down, Mike, I just have to say I love the expression kid analysts that it's hard to interrupt you, but.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I look, I think it's, I think it's actually a good description of the type of.

Speaker 4: It is. It is because it's, you know, there's, there's a, there's a couple of things that sort of break your stride here. But one of the other things that I, I try to tell people, which is maybe slightly different from where you're coming at it, but I completely understand where you're coming at it from, is like, there are people who say, I got something that's better than Bitcoin and, and maybe for some period of time or in a portfolio or something, it may be. But there's also people who are completely inexperienced and think that they think that they've found something better than Bitcoin. And these are the people who I, I love the term kid analyst from because they lack experience and they don't understand fundamentals and they don't, they don't even understand the difference between a balance sheet and an income statement in many cases. And they will, and, and they will talk a good podcast about why something should be worth 30 times what it is when it's perfectly, reasonably priced at what it is. And, and unfortunately, because they sound smart and, you know, their kid analysts speaking to even more naive people, they, they've steered a lot of people in a lot of bad directions. And we've seen these. I like Bitcoin by my treasury company or by my mining company or by my something else. It's going to be worth more scenarios not play out well for the average investor. So like if you're interested in this space, learn about Bitcoin and and understand why you're getting Bitcoin. And I understand that a company is something very different from Bitcoin. It has management risk, it has revenues it's got to generate it has expenses it's got to pay Bitcoin doesn't have a balance sheet, it doesn't have to pay any expenses. It has no employees. It just works. And so it's something very different, but I'll turn it back over to you, Mike.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, look, I came up again largely in support of a space that was getting as technical as this one was and in support of talking about the fundamental underpinnings of Bitcoin in a world that is largely losing its mind. But look, just as recently as that yesterday, if you talk to a lot of people, Bitcoin was over because no one was ever going to care about it again. And, and last month it was no one's going to care about Bitcoin because gold and silver are going up too much, right? And then a couple months before that was no one was going to care about Bitcoin because AI is sucking all the oxygen out of the room. And I've just been around for a long time in markets and everything is temporary. Everything that seems like it'll last forever never does. And usually at the moment that something seems permanent is when it changes the current view that Bitcoin is less relevant or more vulnerable to quantum or less likely to be adopted by central bank. To me, this is all complete and utter bullshit. It, it has nothing to do with the, the, the reality and the fundamental underpinnings of Bitcoin that which have not changed. The only thing that you're going to see change in the coming years is sentiment, right? So Bitcoins are going to continue doing largely what it does now. And because it's better at what it does than anything else. And it's not a company, it's not a proof of stake token, it's not a cryptocurrency or anything like that. It will consistently suck up liquidity at the right time, right? And predicting when those moments are where it, it, it builds momentum and builds price momentum. That's, that's impossible. So I like I say, I just keep accumulating high quality stuff and and hold them for as long as possible, right. And Bitcoin is the easiest in my opinion, once you understand it, the easiest ask in the world. It is way better as a 10 year investment than NVIDIA. It's way better than than gold or silver. It's way better than Ethereum. It's way better than Solana, right? Like it is less likely to be disrupted or out competed than any of those things. And it's, it's by a huge margin. Just because you can't see that in the price today does not mean what I'm saying isn't true. But people will still make the mistake of either not owning enough Bitcoin or, or, or over trading it right or trying to buy it at 48. And so selling it at 73 on the way down, they think on the way down to 48. And, and it bounced so quickly. It's at 59 eight that like you didn't even see it there. It, it wasn't even in the low 60s long enough to, to buy. And of course, when it's at those prices, everybody's too afraid to buy. And, and because they have no conviction in what they're doing, the price itself sets their mood and therefore sets their ability to execute. So there's just, there's a whole bunch of charlatans. There are a whole bunch of idiots and fake people. They're all a bunch of people who are parroting like a trad fight terminology. Like like one example is the other night a guy who actually really like and I think is pretty smart about trad fight was saying that like the only thing that drives Bitcoin is credit spreads. And that's just false, right? I've heard, I've heard 100 variations of this argument for 15 years about how markets work, right Where for any period of time, if the correlation is high enough, some trad fight guy will say, see this is 100% correlated with XYZ thing. I've heard that Bitcoin is correlated with bonds. I've heard bitcoins correlated with rates. I've heard Bitcoin is correlated with the NASDAQ. I've heard Bitcoin is correlated with software for bitcoins, correlated with with credit spreads. It's not it's, it's, it's, it's seemingly correlated for some period of time in which at which point it becomes decoupled for some period of time. And across the history of Bitcoin, 'cause we ran the analysis on every single major asset class, every single macro asset in the world was compared to Bitcoin for every moment since Bitcoin's inception. And there is not a single asset where Bitcoin has any sort of consistent correlation that survives a cycle. So anyone who tells you, yeah, like, you can find long periods of time where it looks like Bitcoin is the NASDAQ, but that doesn't mean Bitcoin's the NASDAQ. You can find long periods of time where Bitcoin's adoption or Bitcoin's price looks like it's correlated with credit spreads, but that doesn't mean that Bitcoin has anything to do with credit spreads. In fact, I I.

Speaker 4: Hey guys, I've got I've got a drop Mike, thanks for thanks for the kind words, really appreciate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It thanks too, for coming tomorrow.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll, I'll see you guys around.

₿itcoin ₿ull: See you buddy, appreciate you telling me. Thank you.

Speaker 5: One deal.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Anyway, but my I made my point. My point is, is that bitcoins on its own S curve. If you don't understand it the way Tomer does deeply fundamentally, you can be easily tricked by people who sound smart in spaces saying Bitcoin is correlated with the NASDAQ, and if the NASDAQ goes down, Bitcoin has to go down a lot or Bitcoin can't go up. It was credit spreads this tight. It's like, that's like saying Internet stocks can't go up with interest rates over 6 or 7%. No, they fucking went up a lot. They went into a huge bubble with rates at 8 and 9%. None of these things are true. It's just what tratify people say when they don't actually understand something. If you don't actually understand AI and you missed it, AI is a bubble right? If you don't understand the Internet right, the Internet is a bubble. If you don't understand Bitcoin, well bitcoins like you're an idiot. It's just bitcoins correlated with credit spreads and so since credit spreads are tight, there's no way between go to $2,000,000 like it's it's much more likely to go down. No, Bitcoin already priced in all of that. It priced in the government shutdowns, it priced in all these other things that are happening. And now it's going to price in something else. And when it's in the process of pricing in that something else for a long period of time, people will miss it because they're looking backwards. And then after Bitcoin has already made its move, they'll be a bunch of new narratives. We'll see it. It only went up because of this thing. And it's like, where were you at 60K or 70K? You couldn't tell me about that thing because you that thing was not visible. Right, just like most people couldn't tell you at 1:26 that Bitcoin was going to go to 60 K and that that the US was going to attack Iran and blah blah blah like because those things didn't exist yet. And anyone who claims that they're knowable in advance is lying because none of these things are knowable. The only thing you could do is do your best to model what is likely to happen to Bitcoin relative to it's pricing mechanism, which is the US dollar, and figure out over 10 or 15 years whether you think the price of Bitcoin is going to go higher and how much. That's it. Like that's all you can do. And occasionally when it looks cheaper, you buy more of it. And occasionally when it looks like it's got a bit of mania or a bit of excitement in it, you can sell some if you need to, like if your kid needs a new pair of shoes. But it's really that simple like that. That's all you do with Bitcoin. And you certainly don't sell it at periods that have felt like the last few weeks. Like if you needed to sell it, sell it at a time when people are excited about it. You don't sell high quality assets when people are negative and people are scared and the chart squigglers are out on spaces, you know, doing a victory lap and dancing on bitcoins grave. Like those are always buying opportunities. It is a buying opportunity basically every single time the dumbest investors come on here and tell you it's going lower and then you buy it right? And then you wait until everybody in your neighborhood wants to buy it like the next time, everybody you know who's not on X, right? And everybody in the real world, like you're at the fast food restaurant or you're in an Uber or you're in an airport. When you hear people talking about Bitcoin, who you know, we're not talking about it. Now that's if you need to sell some or you need to diversify, that's when you do it. You don't do it when the kid analysts are saying we're going lower because of some silly fucking chart. Those people have told you to sell 75 times since 16 K alone. Like literally the same people who were look, I told like these guys are idiots. I told you to sell it at 1:10. It was definitely going to go down. Yeah, they were definitely. It was definitely going to go down AT25K in October of 20232. I was in a space where all of these same people were telling people to sell because there was not going to be any liquidity to get Bitcoin to go higher from 25 K. Well, it went from 25 to 125 K. Where the fuck did the liquidity come from? That apparently didn't exist in October 2023 when every fucking chart squiggler on X that it couldn't go up. But I'll, I'll put the microphone down now. I just wanted to say my piece because I heard a lot of wacky shit in these spaces over the last week or two and I just haven't had time to fully engage with it. And part of it is just I I largely want to hear fully how bad the arguments get before the bottom so that I know when to fully, you know, expect the turn around. And, you know, we may be in it now, we may not. But like either way, I'm very confident that we'll be much higher over the next few years and and that it is unlikely that 60 or 70K will be a bad time to buy Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I agree, Mike, thanks. Thanks for coming up. And you know, I heard that same talk about credit spreads and you know, I I questioned it myself, but I didn't I'm not as technical as you were to be able to respond as as well as you did about it. But yeah, the whenever I hear people so bearish on it, it it's they tend to come out when that's when you hear these guys is when it's going down. But once it goes up, like today I didn't, I didn't hear anything from those same guys.

Speaker 3: Well, that's the biggest thing about Jacob is let's say this credit spread Coco is real, right? Like Bitcoin is a self healing Organism, right? As the as the price is crashing, the hash went down, the miners came offline like it just it wasn't productive to use that energy or the capital in that case, right? So now as the hash is slowly going back up, you see this Bitcoin going back up. It's it's just self healing in terms of the rate of the cycle it goes. So like I think it's the one beautiful thing is like the one commodity where it's such an intensive process to where you can't exuberate more energy than what's in the system.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I mean that makes more sense than the the credit spread theory small cap, you had your your hand.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, hey, guys, good to be here. Hey Mike, I haven't spoken to you in in quite a while and a lot has happened since I think it was the the space where you shorted silver was the last time we spoke and.

Speaker 5: I'm not sure.

₿itcoin ₿ull: If you know this or not, but you know, like in in Bitcoin mining, a lot of these guys are basically not doing Bitcoin mining anymore. They're actually like leasing their power for hyper scalers for, you know, high performance computing and and AI. And you know, I saw something today like one of them they did like, I think they tapped into the ATM market for a pretty large equity raise. I think it was like 6 billion up to $6 billion. And you know, kind of think it kind of looks like they're positioning themselves to de risk build outs and serve some large hyperscaler partners. And you know, 6 billion it, I think it's, I think that's gonna help them with one of their releases. I forgot what they're. I think I had to really do my homework tonight, man.

Speaker 4: But.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Before I came on, I think it was Microsoft or it might have been another like they got some contract with them. Anyways, I'm wondering like if you saw that, what you think about it, if you think maybe hyper scalers might go north of the border north of Seattle into Canada for some BC hydropower or you know, there's a place called like salt, salty water, salt, salt spring, salt water, something like that in West TX. So I was wondering, I don't know, I was just wondering what you thought about that and I because I think you're on the board of anyways, I'll just let you you go if you saw anything.

Hector Lopez: What are you talking about?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Look, I use, I try to use the simplest way to express any idea because I think over long periods of time, there are a lot of things that sound sexy, that sound smart, that actually don't really make money. So I'm trying to express a view. I don't get too cute with it. I advise the kid analysts and the chart squigglers not to do that, but they never listen. Everybody wants to like find this sort of market neutral way to express something or they get too cute with options, right? I tell people 1 to 2% sort of my personal rule of capital Max, you're just sort of, you know, if you're using puts to head or something, it's it's, it's a little bit different, right, Because you can maybe go a little bit bigger because you're just you're sort of creating, you know, more protection on the portfolio. But I'll use them especially in stages of the market where I think it's highly asymmetric. So like in Cypher and Ironing for example. Hey let.

Hector Lopez: Me let me drop appreciate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: The recording that's that's Natalie Brunel's podcast from November, December in New York that I did but listen, I am on the board of iron and I was an advocate for increasing the size of the ATM because it turns out when you have an exceptional amount of opportunity, you should have an exceptional amount of flexibility back in the billion dollar ATM. That was me as well. The people were thinking smaller and, and in one board call, I managed to convince the board to dramatically increase the, the size. And at the time it seemed big. And, and then of course, with the benefit of hindsight, we could have been bigger. And so I think, look, I think we're at this interesting stage where on one hand you've got people in the market saying their AI is a bubble and you know, like maybe it's a circular economy, whatever. And that's just not what we're seeing. What I'm seeing is an astronomical amount of demand. I think, you know, someone said the other day, Claude is the best product that's ever been created. I think the the promise of AI substantially larger than than most people can even understand at this moment. And so I think the the risk this stage is to think too small and to be too small and to not build fast enough and big enough into this market. And look, I think iron is the best operator. I don't, I don't think it's even close right now. Like a lot of people aren't able to get to the ground level right and, and see what's actually being built and how high quality is and how good that team is it being able to run it. But there's just, there's a lot of noise and vibrations in the market and, and we're just largely going to ignore those things and continue to execute the strategy. And, and some of the stuff like, like if you think back to the last couple years, iron got a lot of criticism about ATM usage and then the stock went up 70 times, right? And, and I largely ignored all of it because it turns out that if you're actually good at turning dollars into shareholder value, then you should raise more dollars, right? If you're not good at doing that, then then you know, at some point the market won't let you do it because they won't provide that capital because you haven't proven to be a good steward. You haven't proven that you can. You can create leverage. Iran's proven more than anyone else in this entire ecosystem, more than anyone in the Bitcoin mining ecosystem, and so far more than anyone in the cloud ecosystem, right, that it can turn dollars into shareholder value. And so ask yourself, is anything changed? Right. If, if, if nothing has changed and they're still the most efficient value creator in the ecosystem, do you want them to raise a billion dollars? You want them to raise $100 billion or eventually a trillion dollars, right, or $5 trillion because they're just going to keep printing more money. So like in our lifetime, the numbers are going to just keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Now, a lot of people are not going to deliver value when they do that, but some people will. And if you can, you should, right? So that that's what's happening, right, is like, we're just going to keep building. I think iron has the potential to be one of the biggest companies in this ecosystem over a 5 or 10 year. And the trajectory to to do that, to execute on that is going to require a lot more sites, a lot more people, a lot more customers, a lot more capital. And if you want someone to stay small, right, then like look at the littered bodies of all the companies in Bitcoin mining who you know, didn't convert dollars into shareholder value. There's a long list of those. There's companies trading at 1, two, $3 billion valuations that at one point were worth 5 or 10 times more than iron. So like if you made that choice like that was, that was not a good decision. But we're, we're looking forward, I'm looking forward to the, the opportunity set is massive. The velocity right now is not like the, the speed of which everything is moving is, is very, is very quick. And so I think look, there's going to be a lot more stuff coming right coming down the Pike in the coming quarters and we need to be prepared for whatever happens. So we're just going to keep keep building. I think we're in the first or second inning still of the AI build out. And so, you know, I'll let the the talking heads continue to say we're in AI bubble and I'll continue to ignore them, which is what we've done to get where we are. Guys I got I got to drop off for for dinner and not get in trouble tonight for having my phone.

Hector Lopez: Thanks for coming, Mike. We appreciate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It appreciate you having me. I'm super bullish on on Bitcoin here. I think you want to be bullish on the best asset in the world and the most perceived asset, especially when the vast majority of society is either negative or ignoring it. So that's .1. And then on AI, the AI space is still accelerating, right? So a lot of what you're hearing in the market is noise from people who don't actually understand what's happening in the space. They're not building the company, they're not on the boards, they're not raising the capital themselves, right. Like I can tell you from the inside, it's, it's only going to get bigger. It's going to get bigger for a long time. And so the focus needs to continually be on execution, capital raising, building, signing customers, etcetera, right. And like the people who focus on that and tune out the noise will will do quite well on this fire, but I got to drop. Thanks guys. Bye.

Hector Lopez: Thanks, Mike. See who else we got up here? We got Evan. We got asteroid Bitcoin. What is it? AI guy he's dropping too. Looks like Mike's leaving and some of his followers are too. Hey, Evan. And come on bro, What's up?

Speaker 2: What's up?

Hector Lopez: Why is Bitcoin AI?

Speaker 3: Guy leaving on us just cause Mike's leaving.

Hector Lopez: Maybe, I don't know.

Speaker 3: You know what it'll it will be interesting if credit spend stay wide or keep widening and Bitcoin rips back to a.

Hector Lopez: 100 I know, I know. That's what I want to happen.

Speaker 3: I kind of, I kind of wonder like what underneath the surface kind of caused that overnight jump from 66 to 50 to 73, right? Yeah. Or something was going on.

Hector Lopez: Hey.

Speaker 3: People bought, man. They bought Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: That's oh, obviously, yeah, there's more, more buyers and sellers. But where's Joe's in the audience? Maybe Joe, I hear his thoughts, like for him to come up.

Speaker 3: You, Joe, just bought the dip. That's what happened. And.

Hector Lopez: Joe bought the dip. He's he's hammering the the thumbs.

Speaker 3: Down. No, you, you, you don't pump our bags, Joe, Come on, You. You didn't get the call. Astrid gets the call. I got a whole lot of calls. All right, polls don't stop task rate media. I think that the thing to realize here is that if we so let's talk about what would be really good if we stay bullish for another couple weeks, that would be really, really good and that would be momentous for Bitcoin. Like if we're, if we're still above like 74 and two or two, three weeks, that would be good. I know Joe wants us to dump. It seems like I'm just kidding, but see how we do for 100K by May.

Speaker 2: It's 100.

Hector Lopez: K by May, I got a question for you guys.

Speaker 5: What about the guy?

Hector Lopez: Ben Cohen, who's been calling shots, he's been shot call and he's thinking, dude, we have a, a, a short bump on midterm years and then it's a makes a higher low and then it it kind of chops a little bit downwards. What do you guys say to that?

Speaker 3: I think Joe's trying to come up.

Hector Lopez: Jacob I've I sent him the invite.

Speaker 3: He's praying. Well, he doesn't. He's can't reopen invite. You're saying it's sideways. I don't. I didn't. I didn't catch.

Hector Lopez: That. No, I'm sorry. So you know the guy into the cryptoverse A fella name of Ben Cohen.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah. What was he saying? He's.

Hector Lopez: Been pretty accurate thus far.

Speaker 3: I mean, he's.

Hector Lopez: Been.

Speaker 3: Wrong in.

Speaker 4: Power that thing.

Hector Lopez: The four years.

Speaker 3: Hold.

Speaker 2: On. Hold on.

Hector Lopez: Come on, hold on. Settle down. Settle down. Settle down. A broken clock is right.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Twice a day.

Speaker 3: Pat, we just talked about chart squigglers like 1/2 hour ago. You should. So let's keep it civil. Some of our chart squigglers are sensitive here. I just.

Hector Lopez: Want to save my piece.

Speaker 5: That's.

Hector Lopez: It and I'll shut the heck up.

Speaker 3: Pat is not sensitive. Let's have finished. What was he saying? Pat, we're going what were used to say.

Hector Lopez: No, I'm just saying a fellow respected chart squiggler, he's been pretty fucking accurate thus far. I mean, can you deny it? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: I think he was really right about all coins. And I think a lot of people thought all coins would do a lot better than they had. And yeah, I think back, though. But wait, wait, Pat. But what what you're saying he was right, but what? What? What is that? Why is that relevant?

Hector Lopez: About is how how is how he he referenced in the midterm years. Right there is A and like he did a a I posted a video. I'm not sure if it was this spaces, but he did like a one or what? A one off DV standard deviation of of the mean. And it was like pretty like, OK, it's actually strangely in the past. What is it fucking 16 years or so? All right, Pat. Yeah, dude, I got hopium.

Speaker 3: I got. I got an extended.

Speaker 4: Mag full of hopium.

Speaker 3: Put it that way. I don't, I don't, I don't understand what what does this mean? What you said, what the deviation? What does that mean? We're going up or down. I just.

Hector Lopez: Fucking sit tight. Sit.

Speaker 3: Tight and beat the worst by me. So OK, we're you go off my bed, OK.

Hector Lopez: I'm saying look, I'm saying look, if it does go down, just just just don't sweat it. Because in a long term, I know you know, when most people up here aren't sweating it, but yeah, man, just so my my plan here is this is just to keep huddling as I always did. And I I still have the open buy order AT569. Not saying it'll get there because we could be transversing up into another side that All right, so I got one more, one last thing to say.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Go ahead, Pat.

Hector Lopez: A little scatterbrained right now, it's the last thing.

Speaker 3: Go ahead.

Hector Lopez: Wait, it's 73,000 right now?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yes.

Hector Lopez: Around there? Yep.

Speaker 3: So according to the.

Hector Lopez: Could this not be another like market market maker?

Speaker 2: Fandango.

Speaker 3: Right. What? What does that mean dude?

Speaker 4: What are?

Hector Lopez: They going to keep, are they like are people going Pat, are you drinking tonight? What kind of question is that?

Speaker 4: I'm reeling.

Hector Lopez: It in I'm reeling it in Pat Pat so there's a lot of people on here that have more experience in Bitcoin than I do but the problem with people like Ben is when he tells people that he can read a chart or he says it's going to drop to like whatever 40,000.

Speaker 3: I don't think, he said.

Hector Lopez: That for the record.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, what did he say?

Hector Lopez: I don't it was lower right?

Speaker 4: No, I think it's.

Hector Lopez: Just like, it's just that just don't get freaked out that this thing is going all the way back up. Just be advised. Yeah. What is it called? Like, take it like, take it with a, with a little, I guess grain of salt. No pun intended. OK, but don't you think when people hear that they, they're, it's going to make them like think they should sell and then wait for it to go down to rebuy in And if it never goes back down, then what? They're going to lose out, right? Wouldn't it just be easier to buy and hold? You know, that's what my thing is. I never, I haven't sold. The only thing I did with Bitcoin is I fucking blew. I blew .1 of it. I bought ordinals, but ever since like 2019, I never saw the yeah. And I mean I I did. Everyone had different only transferred it to ordinals. That sucked. I actually never cashed out in.

Speaker 3: Bitcoin I cashed out. I think ordinals are going to come back. I we we cordinals though.

Hector Lopez: Dude, the magic Eden fucking marketplace. Really. What?

Speaker 3: I'm sorry, what the fuck happened to this conversation?

Hector Lopez: I have no idea, Pat.

Speaker 4: You blew .1.

Speaker 3: .1 It sounds like you blow .1 right now and a grain of salt. How much salt do you have around the rims of those bottomless margaritas right now?

Hector Lopez: I mean, I haven't done so I mean, sorry, I had two in the.

Speaker 3: Chamber, I had to let them out those.

Hector Lopez: I get it. No, no, it's all good, man. I'm having a fun time and listen, I want to hear you guys.

Speaker 3: Talk about just.

Hector Lopez: Don't think about price action. We like we like Pat.

Speaker 3: Here, here's the thing about price action. I'll give you some alpha asteroid the the R-squared for the power law just got better over the past week. What?

Hector Lopez: Does R stand for?

Speaker 3: What do you mean the R-squared went down? What are you talking about?

Hector Lopez: Is that rate of change?

Speaker 3: I, I, I swear to God, I thought it went up. Why would it go up? How much did it deteriorate by it? It deteriorated, it went up. But when it went down.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 3: Wait, I'm I'm a Fact Check this, I'm going to see if it what is the span of the R-squared over the past two months? I'm I'm just because you're just assuming without computing it. That's why I'm I'm talking shit. Compute it and then let me know. I don't. I want to see the data. I'm a chart squiggler and I have no clue what what this even is.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, me too. Me neither.

Speaker 3: Oh, this is not a chart swiggle, this is actual math.

Hector Lopez: That is a cool thing. Like with math. I'm just telling you, man, you look at those freaking charts, it's like, holy shit. It is sort of almost a slightly repeating pattern here.

Speaker 3: I like the power law. I don't understand the shit. It's, it's just, I don't think it's really that useful in general. But it's interesting. It's interesting to look at, It's interesting to use. It's just like a guide. It's like a map. I don't want a map. It's it's. I got. I got a.

Hector Lopez: Question for you guys, like why do people say Bitcoin enters? I guess it's all time horizon right? Like Bitcoin is literally in a 16 year bull market right? If you.

Speaker 5: Zoom out enough. So what the?

Hector Lopez: Like if you just if, like you said, like if you just could you wait 5 fucking years or do you have to make it tomorrow?

Speaker 3: I, I, I hate to tell you this, but some of us may not be alive in 10 years.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Who? Who's?

Speaker 3: Not going to be alive.

Hector Lopez: Oh man, that's not nice. I'm.

Speaker 3: Kidding. Sorry.

Hector Lopez: That is not nice.

Speaker 3: We are all. We are all.

Speaker 5: Over the place since.

Speaker 3: I got a good try. What are we?

Hector Lopez: Doing I got a good 20 to 30 years.

Speaker 5: Left.

Speaker 3: This is very morbid. What are we doing?

Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

Speaker 3: It's supposed to be a happy space. I don't want to rename this to Stretch tonight.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, don't you see God candles loaded in the title. What? What happened here? No, look, that's the that's the idea. We are OK so.

Speaker 3: Check this out What do you have to talk about stretch do you think do?

Hector Lopez: You think I ran people buying Bitcoin is helping this thing because it's like the reverse thing you you might have heard about like wartime.

Speaker 3: What, just like capital flight from the country?

Hector Lopez: Like in a way like have you compared that to the to the whatever the Iran country currency?

Speaker 3: Is.

Hector Lopez: God damn I don't know that literally what's a Riyadh or something?

Speaker 5: Did he just have a?

Speaker 3: Looney Tune sound effect board going like what is happening?

Hector Lopez: No, that's him. It's natural. That's natural for him, you know? No, But the lira, what is that? The Turkish lira, I mean.

Speaker 4: Holy smokes.

Speaker 3: Hey Pat, you want me to send you a video of Merkel trees? What kind of trees?

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yes and be terrific. Thank you. So I I think that in order to like change direction, you still have to kind of hold like these areas, like you still have to be above these areas. Like in the next two weeks. Like I think if, if you're going to roll over and this is just a fake out, I think it's going to happen next week probably. But if next week, how do we know? How do we know ahead of time? We don't I'm I'm just chart squiggling, man. I'm just squiggling.

Hector Lopez: I was about to say, well, why would?

Speaker 4: It have to be next.

Hector Lopez: Month I got one thing for what it's worth and and himself.

Speaker 3: How is this help? I want to.

Hector Lopez: Know it might be it might be likely to see this.

Speaker 3: Extreme accuracy where the price will be in a week.

Hector Lopez: Who? From me I'll.

Speaker 3: Give I'll give you one. No, as long as as long as the rest of the market doesn't dump and we start inching up 1002 thousand every other day, people are going to I mean.

Speaker 4: It's going to get.

Speaker 5: Interesting.

Speaker 3: Talking.

Speaker 4: Pumpkin.

Speaker 3: How are we going to do that with credit sports widening? Tell me that how it's not allowed. It violates the Treadfy rule of finance #1 you cannot pump risk ads can't pump if credit spreads are widening, remember. Oh yes, all of these rules that have dictated price.

Speaker 4: Action.

Speaker 3: Was it? Was it Jacob? Was it? I mean, I'm just joking around. I'm not making fun of my life.

Speaker 2: No, I know, I know.

Speaker 3: Is it widening or shrinking? To me it logically seems like it should be widening.

Hector Lopez: Well, we got, we have Joe who's more experienced.

Speaker 3: Than Joe Blanco.

Hector Lopez: Majority.

Speaker 3: Are you talking about Asteroid Man? What are you talking?

Hector Lopez: As long as we don't do.

Speaker 3: Three hours on the power law again like.

Speaker 2: That other?

Hector Lopez: Night. Yeah, yeah. But.

Speaker 3: Well, before we double fill asteroid, it has increased by one, one thousandth of a percent. What are you talking? Credit spreads came in today. What are you talking about? That's not true because that's not statistically significant. So it actually doesn't. The credit spreads came in today like the everything rallied. Like stocks rallied. I mean, I don't, I don't know what you're talking about asteroids smoking the kool-aid. You think it's just a coincidence that QS and SPY all just jumped, that Palantir jumped and you know, a dozen other stocks that are high Flyers and high beta all jumped. It's all just a coincidence with Bitcoin, right? No. Oh, it's not. It's not a coincidence. Hello.

Hector Lopez: I got my tax.

Speaker 3: Return and put it into Bitcoin. Are you guys there? Yeah, you're very little Roboto happening there. A little Wally.

Speaker 5: Sounds like Molly.

Speaker 3: Well, so wait, credit spreads, I didn't see what what was the data on credit spreads? They're widening or tightening. What would happen with them? They move every day, guys. I don't know what you're talking about. Like it's, it's a market. Well, what they do today.

Hector Lopez: It came in.

Speaker 3: Tighter or more what? Tighter, lighter. OK, OK. Why is this confusing to people? No, I, I just thought they were blowing out the and not blowing out, but they were they were widening the other day I mean, it's all the same market It's one market. There's no, no, there's no like uniqueness here. It's all one market, no any.

Hector Lopez: Question maybe you might know the did you did you notice a spike in Bitcoin due to Iranian? Maybe, maybe we can't figure out is it Iranians trying to trying to preserve their spending power when the bomb?

Speaker 5: By the way.

Speaker 3: The South Korean equities has just let hit limit up. Is that a coincidence too? I think it's just coincidence. Their markets are fucking limit up. Wacky limit up. They also had a circuit breaker today, too. Yeah. Limit up. International's getting killed against S&P 500 lately. Yeah, they they hit three circuit Breakers tonight. What's the biggest performer last week? The QS everybody said the Q's were dead right? Equal weight and SPY was was killing Bitcoin Q's. Other performers are rallying harder. It's just giant coincidence.

Speaker 5: Or or could it?

Speaker 3: All be connected maybe it's obviously because of the what you mentioned, but the question is will this last you know, will this continue? That's I think that's the important question. No, it's the totally wrong question, Mike, with all due respect. Well, then what's the right question to ask? Right question to ask is, is the economy in a recession or downturn or are we on the verge of economic reacceleration because everything flows from that? Could we be somewhere in the middle, though? Yeah, being stagnation, you know, but yeah. But I don't I don't really see that in any of the data. Things are about to fly in Atlanta. Fed G Can.

Hector Lopez: That be Star Trek. What Star Trek terms? Sorry, Star Trek terms.

Speaker 3: OK, OK.

Speaker 5: Listen.

Speaker 3: If you have a functioning warp Dr. OK, that's all that matters because while in warp, it can't slow you down. OK, Now if you fall out of warp and you're and and Mr. Scotty doesn't have the warp drive going, you're screwed. You're sitting duck guy. Get those phasers and photon torpedoes going to get things going again. That's the Fed cutting interest rates. But your impulse engines aren't going to help you outrun anybody. The Klingon's got you dead rights. Hope that helps.

Hector Lopez: Joe.

Speaker 3: Troopers don't speak Klingon. Oh, well, that's Star Wars. OK, just settle down. It's Star Wars. It's really offensive to a Trekker if you can't, you know, get them straight.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, Joe, have you ever tried stand up comedy just as a open on a open mic, just out of curiosity?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Hector Lopez: How'd it go? Did you bomb? No.

Speaker 3: You have to.

Hector Lopez: Hold up, you killed on your first fan I.

Speaker 3: Have won a rap battle in college I have won a stand up comedian award I I frequently have to give self deprecating humor in front of jurors and judges so man, it's kind of my job I need I need to be able to I need to be able to come to a room so.

Hector Lopez: Chill, can I ask you a question?

Speaker 3: Who's that? Identify yourself. What do you mean it's me?

Speaker 4: Asteroid.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, asteroid. How could he not tell my voice so. But when you go to court and have to either, I don't know, present or or examine at this point, do you in your career after I don't know how long you've been doing it, 10 years longer. Do you still get a little bit nervous or use it? Is it just like another day where you don't even like get fazed by it? The only time I ever get nervous is if it is something a little bit out of my wheelhouse. OK, if it's, you know, motion to dismiss, motion to summary judgement arguments I've raised a million times, I don't really feel anything but the but if it's like something really complicated, you know, some of those little precedent, you know, where where I think the judge for whatever reason, doesn't like my client stakes are high. And you got that's where I, I, I feel alive again. Interesting. But that's only a small part of being a lawyer. I mean, I was a paralegal. You should see what what most of the day of lawyers is. I mean, just working on those briefs, right? Yeah, I write a Oh, yeah. That's why. That's why I was asking if he gets nervous. I know it's because, like, you don't do it every day, but you do it sometimes, right. Well, I'm in court probably 3-4 days a week. That's a ton though, right? Oh my God. Why? Well, Zoom court jump on the zoom. How often do they go in person these days? Like 3 * a month? I do. Oh wow. How many cases are you currently, like working on? It matters. Do you have 70 or how many? Oh my God, yeah, that's quite a bit. But I have staff. I literally have. I have associates and people that I supervise from.

Hector Lopez: I literally have jury duty tomorrow. Luck. Thanks. Yeah, thank you. Exactly. Good luck. What's crossed?

Speaker 3: Has any? I've only gotten called once and then I went there and they kicked me out. Is is it? Is that abnormal? Yeah. I would bounce you so hard. The mustache. Why the glasses, dude? They.

Speaker 5: Couldn't wait.

Hector Lopez: That's my plan. I'm just going to tell them all about Bitcoin.

Speaker 3: Dude, Joe, they couldn't wait to bounce me like I got up there in the air. You ever, ever seen the comic Spy and spy versus Spy? Already seen that. That's basically asteroid. What is it about me that went they wanted to get me rid of me The past If the eyes are a mustache, you can't trust people, you know after it. How do I find out what you look like? So do you want people that look like ordinary, like what are they looking for? Oh, it depends on what you're going for. Like if you if you are prosecuting like a bad actor, like if you're a plaintiff's attorney and you're suing a company you want, you know the oh, you want here's classic. You want like the purple haired 28 year old that thinks the whole system's rigged. Like if I get that purple haired 28 year old, she will take all a grain of salt's money. I don't even need to have a cause of action. She'll just be like, wait, you're a rich white guy, You're done. Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: Oh.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, Joe, I was just going to give you the best comment.

Hector Lopez: I had sorry I.

Speaker 3: Don't really mean anything.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I know, I know. Oh my God.

Speaker 3: Colonizer. There's nothing against purple haired people. I expect all.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's correct. Hey, I just want to say your analogy about Star Trek with Scotty and, you know, having a functioning warp Dr. that was so spot on and brilliant. I think you should write that and post it.

Speaker 3: Yeah I do, but you know if I write down everything that cops in my head, I won't have any time to do real work. So no GPT used.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So the question is, do you want asteroid to ever be on any type of case that you would be doing?

Speaker 3: Yes, 100% like I think so if I had a case involving some type of computer security issue, I think Astro would be an ideal juror for that, but I would I would want to be I would want to have the facts skewed in favor of the Enterprise like the nothing, not the Star Trek that no pun intended of the business, the company with a cyber security issue. I think Astro would be great for that because I think he'd be willing to go back and push against forward defending them and they were sued for like a data breach like a cyber issue like cyber security issue. Feel like Astrid would push back against the hardliners who would just be like, well, they our data, therefore they're they're responsible. He would he would pull in a little more nuance. He'd push back and he and he's not afraid. You know what what, what do you need? When you're picking a jury, you need to think about these debates we have on X, right? You need at least two or three people that are going to be willing to say no, screw you. I'm not going to just go along for the ride because a lot of jurors jurors they all do respect. They're like kind of lemons. Like they, they just basically like if one guy goes in there, particularly if it's like an older dominating male, he'll be like, well, we're clearly finding this person not liable.

Hector Lopez: Strong, yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, they'll just, they'll influence everybody else. So you need sort of an antagonistic person that is going to be sort of a curmudgeon like asteroid that's going to say, wait a second, what you're saying doesn't make any sense. What she does frequently on these spaces. I probably would be, I would probably call them out. You're right. I'd be like just picture if you were on like a juror, if you're a juror on a case with like dark side, OK, like, like, Oh my God. I mean, because that happens a lot. Like keep in mind, jurors have to, you know, disagree with one another. And you know, if you're, if you're defending somebody and you want somebody to acting critically, you don't want the guy. That's just like, I get back to, you know, Monday Night Football. Let's let's find them liable. Like that's that's not what I I mean when I'm defending people, how typical are those guys who are like, oh, let's just get this guy, Fuck them a lot, a lot. It's going to be like, what's that? What I got selected for was like a criminal case, but they kicked, they bounced me out. It was some kind of real bad, like real, real dark shit. Criminally, yeah, in Cook County, but they bounced me. So one of my good buddies, he is a prosecutor in Cook County. And his entire, literally his only assignment is doing illicit images, like child pornography prosecutions. He cannot understand how he does that for life. That's all he does day in, day out, you know, interviewing. Yeah. It was something like that. That was the only one I ever went to. And I was like, oh, God, I don't, I don't want to do this. And then they went up there and they were like, all right, get out of here. And, you know, they're not, they're not making real money. Don't, don't, don't leave.

Hector Lopez: I mean, did you even? Did they even ask him any questions? You might have just been the wrong background, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3: Yes, I definitely noticed they selected a certain for sure. I definitely noticed that. And like and when they and then they was trying to leave, they're like, oh wait, you'll you won't get your like $60.00. And I was like none of them believe it, but it was so stupid. They were like they were like you have to stay till 3 or 4 to get like the 60 bucks or whatever. I was like, I don't care about that stupid shit later.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, hey, Joe, Joe, I have a jury duty story. So I don't know, Five years ago, I'm in San Jose, Silicon Valley, and I get called up for a jury duty and the guy's there for a murder trial. And I'm looking around and everybody that's in the, you know, the potential jury pool that's there. And I'm looking at the, you know, what do you call it, the perspective murderer? And I noticed that he's black and everybody else in the audience is either white, Asian or from India. And so anyway, so I didn't get picked. And then by by just by a stroke of luck, I was at a party couple years later and I met the What was that?

Speaker 3: With the guy you were at a party.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, I wasn't a guy. I was at a party and the District Attorney for Santa Clara County was there. And I said to her, I said to her, I said, you know, I have a question for you. She's like, sure, because I I that was the case. And it was like a famous, not a famous case. And they don't get a lot of murder cases. But I said, what is the jury of your peers mean? And she like looked at him. She said, well, I got to explain that to you. She said the problem with the jury pool is that a lot of a lot of ethnic groups aren't represented if they if they move a lot and they go off of like voter records. So if you basically the people that are more stable get called for jury duty more often, but that may not be the people that are accused of crimes. And I was like, well, that doesn't seem particularly like a, you know, a jury of your peers. So did you ever run across that concept?

Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. I mean, there's a whole line of Supreme Court cases about, you know, mature veneers and panels and whether they're truly representative. And there's this whole body of case. I don't remember at all off the top of my head, but I seem to remember, you know, there's there's, you know, things like in the old days, they had literacy tests and all sorts of procedures to narrow the eligibility of voters. And as you point out, the voter rolls were determined who was in back the juror. So it seems like, you know, you're going to exclude the vast majority of people that are similarly situated to, you know, a minority defendant and, and can associate with what they were going through. So it's a very challenging aspect. There's a lot of constitutional law on that. And there's a lot of panels that will look at issues in the appellate courts about is the jury appropriate? Is it, was it truly selected? Was there an effort of systemic isolation? Because even in like the South, what they used to do, even if you got few African American jurors from the pool is used to routinely bounce them to get to preemptory challenges and get to say, Yep, we're going to there's, there's four African Americans. We use, you know, five of our challenges on on those four and one other guy. And then they would, they would try to prevent blacks from being on the jury. This is well documented. There's like a ton of Supreme Court case law on it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So hey, can we switch to, I see we have some famous people in the audience, you guys, you guys talking about Bitcoin tonight? We talking about Bitcoin?

Speaker 3: We were talking about Bitcoin, we were talking about the move today here. Here's here's the interesting question. We were discussing green. I like your thoughts on it. So, you know, a lot of people in these spaces, they focus solely on the Bitcoin market, but there are a lot of things that rallied today. I mean, the queues rallied very hard. I think what did they close up the end of the day? You know, not not a Bitcoin type move, but they closed up. 1.5% on the day just saw the South South Korean index, the stock index went limit up. You have a lot of things rallying across the board and the subject we had is, you know, is this is this going to hold is going to be a broader risk on move here that's going to push everything higher or do you think it's an idiosyncratic Bitcoin only move, you know, over the coming days that Bitcoin is going to separate itself out from the pack and differentiate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I think bitcoins going to separate itself out from the pack, provided that the trend is positive going forward because it's a more reactive asset class. That's if the trend continues. But I haven't been on Twitter for like, I don't know 4 hours. So what I remember reading this morning was that it there's a possibility that Iran may may concede early or negotiate some type of, you know, to somehow stop the aggression that the US has against it. Has any new information come out about that or what I read was a was a hoax? I don't know.

Hector Lopez: That's a good question because I like you haven't really been on today. Grant, I saw Grant doing a hundreds. Grant, have you heard anything on that? Joe, go ahead. No, I.

Speaker 3: I guess that my only question to that, Joe, is I'm, I'm curious if the US is going to become the risk off and the rest of the world will become, or let me rephrase, the rest of the world is going to become risk off and US will become risk on in terms of the framework of the world. I I, I think because like with Korea and Shanghai, like I think it's kind of interesting how we past three days we've had these pukes in the US kind of held stable points. I think that'll continue until this Iran thing is over. Then international probably show some more strength And what is the, what are the charts say? Charts say moon time charts say Omega candle for what they say for for what the chart. Welcome to Moonville hometown USA. The charts. I I would be, I would honestly, I mean, I more bare. I think we're gonna come down some more, probably for NASDAQ. What the hell is wrong with you, Evan? Come on, man. I mean, unless I'm down some more. What do you mean for for S&P 500 NASDAQ, You know, over the next month or two, I think I think you could come down more probably. I think that if Bitcoin could hold these areas to be above where we are right now and like 2 weeks from now, that would be good. But if we have a red week next week, I think that would be pretty bad and that would price signal for a red March. So yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'll put it, I'll put it this way. We're we're swapping Scotty out in the engine room with Kevin. Kevin's gonna come in and he's gonna make sure that we have a functioning warp drive. And if and if he gets, we're going to have the confirmation hearings are going to happen with Kevin. And if Kevin, if those confirmation hearings go well, then I think that we can, you know, you know, warp factor two or three because it's going to be, look, if Trump loses the election in the fall, right, Then he's lame duck for his last two years. And right, so if things are looking positive or things are looking negative, he kind of has to get everything done before the summer. He got to get, he has to get Kevin approved. We have the engine room going full blast. Let's get the economy ramped up. People's Iras, 4 O1 KS are rocketing higher. And then that'll do wrap up what's in Iran. And then he'll do well into the midterms. If that doesn't go the way that he wants, then I would say, yeah, I have a bearish outlook, but I think all that's going to happen.

Hector Lopez: Treating tea leaves, I don't know, I, I, I could see and, and Joe, I'm sure you have an opinion on this too, but I could see a split Congress and presidency as bullish markets. So the more, let's just say extreme actions get curtailed a little by the president, you know, maybe there's a a small hurdle or a small pause before we act decisively on the next region or country. Yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I know, wait a second, but.

Speaker 4: I mean, you can't.

Hector Lopez: Say that you can't say that the the events around Venezuela and the events around Iran rocketed markets right those.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, no, I'm not. I'm not saying that. I'm saying Trump did not get permission from Congress to do what he did in Venezuela or Iran. And even if, even if the Congress was to get split right after the elections, they're still not going to stop him from doing what he wants to do. The question is, will there be a repercussion 3 to six months after that? And I and I don't think there is. Do I think it slows things down? Yeah. But as long as he may, as long as the Republicans control Congress and, and, well, they have all three branches of the government. If they really can't get stuff done in the next two years, then they have no excuses. I mean, Trump delivered, but.

Speaker 3: Hang on, hang on. Go ahead. The the problem, the problem I have agree with that is that things have already been done. OK. What's the single biggest legislative achievement in the Trump administration? Without a doubt, No doubt, yes. It's it's not even close. The tax cuts in there are going to have economic dividends for several years until the next president #1 #2 deregulation. It's a deregulation which is spurring CapEx, which is contributing to growth, which is doing the AI build out. That's already baked in the cake. So right now, if nothing happens, if you get nothing through Congress for the remainder of Trump's term, from an economic standpoint, it's baked in. I don't I don't. First, the only thing I think that could come from Congress that would be potentially be bullish at this point in my mind is the STEMI checks. You get those STEMI checks out. That's going to be, you know, the, the, the match that, you know, lights the dynamite. But other than that, I mean, what, what else do you want? Deregulation and the BBB.

Hector Lopez: Doesn't he need Congress for that though, Joe?

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, we already got it. That's what Joe's saying.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, yeah, to his point is already through.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It's already but, but but that becomes the issue. No, for the stimi checks for the stimi checks, but but Joe, let's go back to your point because I'm I'm in agreement with you, but my question to you is, is it more front loaded that hey, we want to get these signed off and they get signed off then it then it's like a sell the news event or does as they get implemented, then we reap the rewards of it. Which which camp are you in? I.

Speaker 3: Think that as it gets implemented, particularly the deregulation, and I hear this from some of my, that's right, don't they? They can't just instantly turn on a dime. Some of the stuff, the CapEx takes 18 months. If you look at like the president coming in in 2025, I think you started to see a lot of these deregulation moves on day one through the first six months. And they'll actually pay dividends all the way into the last year of the Trump presidency. So to me, I think it's already baked in at this point. Just takes time to percolate through the system and the tax cuts especially, I mean, the tax cuts they're going to contribute to larger rebates from people and refunds. And those things are going to be actually hitting the market in a big way into 20272028. But I just think that that to me, I mean, I'm very bullish on the economy overall. And the thing I think confuses people is they, they every single little pullback in the market. I mean, you're 1.8% or 1.7% of the all time highs in the S&P everything a little pullback. People start freaking out and saying we're entering Great Recession 2.0. You know, markets can consolidate after big moves back-to-back huge years in 2425. They can consolidate for a few more months here and they can RIP into the end of the year and RIP into 2027 and RIP into 2028. I don't know why people think they can't. Economies don't die of old age. Usually it's some shock to the marketplace that comes out of nowhere that, you know, kicks it in the nuts and it starts to roll over. That's generally what happens historically.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I I agree with you. Let's hear. Let's hear from the naysayers.

Hector Lopez: Hey man I just want to tap in right now dude. It will take just one flick of the switch.

Speaker 3: Hey, a lot.

Hector Lopez: United States is just buying 100,000 bitcoins right now. Yeah, how cool would that be?

Speaker 3: I think the the point about like tax refunds could be that's a good point because I think, you know, mid to late April when people get them, that could potentially mark a bottom for Bitcoin, even a bottom for Tradfi too, Because if you see more of a red March, then you could sorry as a motorcycle, then you could see yeah, you could see potentially an upward rise from April onward. I could see some potential. But why do you think the bottom isn't in? Why isn't the tell me every and all reason why the bottom Bitcoin isn't? I think that you can't you can't talk about a calendar. Let me let me just everything else. Sorry, sorry, I interrupted. What was that last thing you said? No, you can't talk about a calendar. No, I'm not. I'm not the calendar because back in 2022, MicroStrategy bottomed out before Bitcoin. So I think the same thing may happen. I think MicroStrategy could have bottomed and I think you need to come down a little bit more for Bitcoin maybe somewhere in the 50s potentially this month or next month. And then that could be a potential bottom. I think the best thing right now is kind of the strategy you mentioned selling cash secured puts, because I think you're gonna be in a longer accumulation phase for probably a lot of this year. So DCA ING in probably makes the most sense. And I mean, there's people who make different arguments about DCA ING, but I don't know. From my experience, usually DCA ING works the best people, some people say it's better to just put a lump sum in. I, I, I think DCA ING is the best kind of bet. If you have a, it's best because it's psychologically better for you. OK, That's why it's best, Yeah. If you could sleep at night, yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I'll give you 2 scenarios on DCA versus lump sum. You, you tend to get people that do when, when things are euphoric and Bitcoins around all time high. If you tell somebody you should DCA in, they FOMO in when things, when prices are low, you should, you know that's when you should in theory lump sum in. So it's kind of like if, if you're at 50% the all time high, in theory lump summing is not a bad idea because you're trying to capture more of the bottom side. But if you're at, if you're within 5% or 10% of the all time high, lump summing is not a good idea. That's when DCA and I think that people reverse those two. But I want to go back to what you said about MicroStrategy strategy. You know, if you do MSTR, you know priced, you know versus I bit that rolled over in January. And so MSTR since on on the weekly scale, I'm not talking on the daily scale, on the weekly scale it rolled over in January. So we have we have already about you know five weeks of that it's running faster than I bit. So that in that example, it's already, it's already started to kick back up again.

Speaker 3: That's exactly what happened in 2022. It bottomed out against Bitcoin in May of 2022, which obviously was before Bitcoin bottomed and before Etherium bottomed. And I mean, you could argue that without FTX, June of 2022 would have been the bottom for Bitcoin. But I do think that MicroStrategy, that's a good chart to look at because I do think that MicroStrategy could have bottomed against Bitcoin. That thesis wouldn't be invalidated unless we lose make another low against Bitcoin. So then I would convert my micro strategy position over to Ibid at that point, because what's the point if this is just gonna keep bleeding against Bitcoin? What's your cash allocation, Evan? Although, oh, in total, let me think, give me like one second to think about that. Probably 85 dollars, 30% well does if you have a percent cash away.

Hector Lopez: 30%.

Speaker 3: So if you have he's long non dollars if you have Berkshire Hathaway 50% bonds. So I don't know, do I count that? Do I count Berkshire Hathaway as half cash? Oh, Rickshire path that he that's basically.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Security.

Speaker 3: OK. That's security. Then I have, I have living expenses for six months, cash, that's all I have.

Hector Lopez: That's an emergency fund, No, but like what? What's you're not kind of emergency fund and you're trading?

Speaker 3: I don't. I don't keep you.

Hector Lopez: Can live OK no cash you.

Speaker 3: Live for six months off 30 grand. No I said 30% bro, not 30 grand. Oh sorry, no, not that, but.

Hector Lopez: It sounds like that's your, but Evan, that sounds like that's your emergency fund.

Speaker 3: Six months. Six. Yeah. I don't. I don't hold cash. I don't hold actual.

Hector Lopez: Cash, OK. So you're so really you're.

Speaker 3: Zero, yeah, 0. But I have Berkshire halfway, which is half bonds. I count that. I I count it based on how are you counting? Wait, why? Why are you counting the equity of Berkshire as as I know that this it's part of their holdings, you know, the old treasury. Good. Well, what's the rationale there? Because it's half bonds, it's half bonds. So I I count half of that is so that would bring it up to that would.

Hector Lopez: Bring I thought they're I thought they're 1/3 cash. They're.

Speaker 3: Not 150%. They're 50% now. They're not 50% cash right now. Is that are you are you bonds? Let me double check, double check it double check. I hope I'm right. I'm going to look stupid if I'm like.

Hector Lopez: That doesn't sound right.

Speaker 3: That's a huge cash. It's a lot. That's the most they've been in since 2005. It's a lot, man. They've been treated. But I thought.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, but I thought it's 1/3 cash, which is the most cash they've been in in two decades. You're right.

Speaker 3: It's a whole lot.

Hector Lopez: 50%.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Bonds Hey, guys, guys, can we, can we, can we invite Josh Mandel to be a speaker?

Speaker 3: He's always invited, but Jacob, get on that.

Hector Lopez: Hey, I've sent it to him.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK, Hey Josh, we'd like you to be a speaker and, and, and tell us what you're thinking. Maybe that'll help. I haven't spoken to him in about a month though, so I'd like to hear what he has to say.

Hector Lopez: Hey, so does anybody have anybody have a theory on what, what caused the pop today? What's what was the mechanism of that? Well, one thing that didn't get mentioned was ADP jobs news was better than expected. You know where we we just put a we just put the cherry on top with earning season. Everyone beat again, S&P 500 crushed again, the mag 7 crushed again, NVIDIA beat again and now you have jobs news that looks slightly better than expected. I mean other than Iran, I don't know what the bears are hanging their hat on. I think you know, I don't I don't know about all the other wishy washing this, but I fully I fully think 60K was the low. I think we've hit the bottom. I think the meat of the move is done and I shared up in the nest like look going back cycle after cycle after cycle once Bitcoin on the five year weekly chart. Once Bitcoin falls below 30 RSI, the meat of the move is over. You sure In 2022 we had a second capitulation because of FTX, but the difference was only 175TO155 S 10% lower with one of the worst capitulations in crypto's history. You know, in hindsight, again, June 2022 was the meat of the move is over. So it doesn't have to exactly repeat, but sub 30 RSI on bitcoins 5 year chart. Like, I'm not, I'm not shorting, I'm only buying.

Speaker 3: Hey, Matt, good question. I just remember a few months and obviously opinions change, but I'm just curious to see where you're at. Are you still negative in terms of jobs growth and you see still see the Fed as way behind?

Hector Lopez: No, no, no, I flipped back it back in early January when all the sudden we could look, we could look in the rearview mirror on the the long government shutdown and we had not one but two earnings to chew over. And initial jobless claims kept coming in solid in the low 2 hundreds like you know, we have we have now multiple weeks, multiple months of decent jobs news that I I think for what are we expecting for Friday 4.34 point 4 Joe unemployment and you know it unemployment was creeping higher throughout 2025. Monthly jobs were having worse struggling in fall and winter 2025. But it seems like we found a floor we've we've found a base. And if if you've got 75 to 80% of the S&P 500 beating earnings and the the net employment of the US is holding steady or gaining jobs like you can't, you can't be bearish that and then the next Fed chairman's going to lower rates probably.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, but that.

Speaker 3: You know, you know what's amazing, though in that, Matt? The most amazing look at the chart that's in the nest despite everything you just rattled off all the positive headwinds or tailwinds here, all the positive tailwinds investor, this chart from bar chart investors now hold the most put protection in history.

Hector Lopez: Beautiful that is. That is, so that is.

Speaker 5: The biggest, most bull, that is.

Hector Lopez: Such a bull. Yeah, that is such a bullish sign. That is such a bullish sign, Hey. And I paid the masses.

Speaker 3: It it wasn't more of a gotcha, I just haven't heard you since the government shut down. We've been on the same space. So I just curious what made you change your mind? So thank you.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, right on. I mean, I can't predict the future. I'd I'd simply just let the data dictate. And like we've had multiple weeks now, multiple months of some good news and only a perma bear doesn't change their mind.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, hey, Matt, I agree with everything you said, but I'm going to say what I'm going to say why I disagree. So everything you said I believe is, is true fault. So if the concept that and and and Joe has talked about this before, but Joe, you can always correct me if I misquote you would would what we tend to look at is that if we get Kevin in in into the Fed and the whole idea is I believe that Trump wants him to cut interest rates. But if all the metrics that you just said are true, which I believe they are.

Speaker 4: And he's like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well the warp Dr. is looking just fine and we're we're running at warp 2. Trump's like, hey, let's drop interest rates to go to warp factor 4. And he's like, no, it's going to stoke inflation. And so if Kevin becomes the head of the Fed, he's got a tough spot. If the if the numbers all come to if the S&P 5 hundreds at an all time high and every and the jobs numbers are all good. He really doesn't have the metrics to say I should cut interest rates. And I think that's is he the problem? No.

Hector Lopez: No, no I don't.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hold on.

Speaker 5: Let me.

Hector Lopez: Hold on, let me answer that real fast. What's what was our last couple CPI prints? CPI inflation prints 2526I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Thought they were like 2-9 but whatever I mean.

Hector Lopez: 29, OK, all right, but all right, fine, let's just say it's 29. And what's our fed funds rate?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Is it 5? I don't know what the current number is.

Hector Lopez: Right. So Long story short, we're paying more money for bondholders than the rate of inflation. And what happens if inflation stays? What? What if it doesn't even go down? What if it just stays for the next 6 months at 292-728-2729 like you are? We're going to absolutely have plenty of room to cut just to come down to where inflation is. We like you. We are running a massive deficit and now paying our bondholders are one of the biggest line items on our on our country's balance sheet. Literally we're paying free money way beyond what inflation says. And so, so he's going to have plenty of justification in room to at least bring it down to what the rate of inflation says he'll have not not one, not 2, but multiple quarters of data, almost a year of data that says like, Hey, we, you know, the days of nine percent, 7%, five percent, 4% inflation are done. We've been, we've been sub 3% for.

Speaker 4: What?

Hector Lopez: 234 quarters in a row, that's plenty of you know, I'm not talking about he has to drop rates to 0 or 1% or even 2%, but he can bring it down from whatever it's at 4. I think it I thought it was like high 3.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I just looked it up, it's three. It's 35 to 375.

Hector Lopez: There you go. So he could, he could drop rates by 100 basis points and be and be well justified in doing so because all he's doing is matching CPI inflation and we and we can have a healthy discussion of like, come on, CPI inflation, how accurate is it? It's a made-up number. But if they're going off of CPI inflation and inflation says it's 2 seven or two eight or two nine and you're paying bond holders at 3938 or three nine. Like we see the problem there, you know?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I hope you're right. And I was on space with Michael Cantrell a couple weeks ago and they said are are we in the Goldilocks phase? And he's like, we're not far off from it. So I mean, that's about as good as he yet. Hey, Josh.

Hector Lopez: You tell me like right? Like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I agree with you. I hope you're right.

Hector Lopez: Yeah. And how bullish would that be? Every single company that wants to roll their debt for the next five years, every single every single housing sector region that like, you know what rates just dropped by another half percent or a whole percent. Now's the time we refinance or now's the time we can sell this house and buy something else somewhere else. Like it'll be so bullish economy, just one or two little Fed rate cuts.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK, can we can we cut to the bond trader and have them tell us what what he thinks? Let's go to.

Speaker 5: Hi, folks. How are you? This is Josh.

Hector Lopez: Hey, Josh, how's it going?

Speaker 5: Good, good. Thank you for for hosting the space. So, yeah, I was a bouncer here at Songs for a long time. And I, I guess, well, I'll just say this. the Fed is not the same Fed as it was back then. Back then, you had like a Japanese sort of central bank, which was so tied in with the post office and all this other stuff going on with the government that we just consider it to be not, not not legitimate. And, and we've come to the point now where everything has become so politicized over the last 15 years that, that, that the Fed is politicized. It's just the fact that the president and the, the Fed chief are really just showing their team to each other all the time, the way they happen. And that whole showdown at the building, you know, I've never seen anything like that. I mean, I, I think what, what was done here is that, you know, Donald Trump is a, is an older gentleman who, who is in real estate business and everything in real estate is run on leverage. And he loves a lot of leverage. And, you know, he, he realized at some point in time that there were some countries that had actually gone down to a 0 interest rate policy, you know, a couple decade or so ago. And, and, and he's like, well, why don't they actually give you interest? Why as a borrower, Why can't they get paid? You know what, I think why not? That would make the world go round for him. And, and you know what, it's not an impossible scenario, but you, well, don't forget, we're always, you know, a moment away from an engineer downturn. I mean, the, the art of the deal is, is practiced in any way it takes to get it done. And he he could just talk down the economy and weaken it up and out so that there would be an impetus for the Fed chief to do something. But I, I just would be very surprised to see Donald Trump leave office without rates being much lower than they are now. That's all I have to say about that.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, Hey, Josh. Do you think Kevin's going to lower interest rates?

Speaker 5: So I don't think that you can. I think, yeah, I think, I think the Fed chief is going to lower interest rates. I mean, I'm just going to say that broadly because it's the Fed chief is being picked to lower interest rates. His whole peeve with the Fed is that they didn't lower interest rates, you know, anything they should. And his point of view, there's no, no cost because if inflation isn't very costly necessarily to a person who owns a lot of assets, because we benefit from inflation, you know, what happens is housing prices go up, land values go up, you know, all these things. And then who cares about the goods and services part of the CBI when you're a billionaire? And so, I mean, we who are even millionaires don't feel it really, to be fair, we benefit so much from our asset holdings. And, and that's the same thing will happen whether you're a bitcoiner or a stock owner. And.

Speaker 3: Here's my question with jobs though. What effect does anybody think that the tariffs or threat of tariffs having in terms of job creation? And the reason I said because like for, for me, myself, like I, I resource and I resort stuff to California out instead of China, right? And we're, we're hiring more people to assess tariff impacts and do like network optimization, that type of thing. So, so, so I think I'd be kind of interested to see tariff threat or resourcing or reassuring like what effect that has had on the economy if that was something priced into the future in terms of jobs numbers.

Speaker 5: I think tariffs isn't just an inflationary injection, that's all. I mean all the other stuff, the market, the world is changing and we're heading towards a change in job creation towards AI and people's work is no longer going to be as much as sort of physical labor as it used to be. It's going to be thinking with your brain.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, Josh, do you think assuming we get 1% rate cut and we wrap up with Iran, you know things go things go bullish, do you think the bottoms in for Bitcoin and that it runs harder than the S&P 500?

Speaker 5: So I, I mean, I think the bottom was in for Bitcoin 60,600 on, on the chart. Just take a look a little ways back on that was a, I'm not going to say the name of the broker, but that, that was the price. And I, I, I just felt like we've been OK since then, but I, I still see central banks chasing gold and, and central banks are very big buyers. They, and they're going to keep pushing gold up. And I think Bitcoin's going to have it's fit since I, I don't really quite understand how these O GS show up and, and sell on the market and how micro strategy and other players are buying so much. But I, I haven't figured out that phenomena completely. I think it's just that there are a lot of O GS who really never believed that they would get liquidity. Liquidity means not just price, but volume. And we've had a lot of volume in, in, during, during this price. Between. I don't know if it's 75 or and, and 125. So they've been able to offload more than they ever thought they would. When you own a lot, a lot, a lot of security as I have before. And when I was at home where we had like so much big, big position as a single bond, you're scared to ever touch the screens because the word gets out, you're selling, just the market starts to go and you can't hold it. You just start, then you get your margin call. And so I think that OGS just kind of saw this opportunity to get lifted and they were doing off market transactions. I often felt like, you know, maybe when I go seller was negotiating.

Speaker 3: To pay up.

Speaker 5: $2000 for a huge block or something because he knew liquidity is really not what it looks like in Coinbase always. And and that's why you saw all these little run UPS this pattern of run up into his purchases and the sell off is just that's what it took to get liquidity. I just often felt that way. I can't prove that And and I just think that Bitcoin's gonna explode, but it's gonna be, it's gonna be like first stocks might, might down take to, to get this fed running because that'll be the, the impetus for that, the catalyst for that. And gold will top off and then Bitcoin will overtake it and roll and just on a rate of return point of view.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Do you have a price target on gold that you like? Yeah, and and a time frame.

Speaker 5: This, I think is going to show up for 1600 or something like that, like that, and that's where the rollover will take place at. Wow.

₿itcoin ₿ull: What was your number 1616?

Speaker 5: Thousand, I'm sorry, I was thinking I was. I was converting to GLD just by dividing by 10.

Hector Lopez: What is the time frame on that, Josh? I'm not.

Speaker 5: Going to do that because then people get me into options trade. Is it like I bought this option because you said the time frame was this that and?

₿itcoin ₿ull: The other thing, yeah.

Hector Lopez: Just tell them half a decade, you know?

Speaker 5: It's.

Hector Lopez: It's both long. It's.

Speaker 2: Both.

Hector Lopez: Short, it's both. It's midterm January.

Speaker 5: February 27th.

Hector Lopez: Half a decade is that sweet spot where it's just.

Speaker 5: 2000.

Speaker 3: $27 million question, what performs better over the next five years, Bitcoin or gold? OK, so.

Hector Lopez: Five years Bitcoin easily. Here's something. Here's something, you know, if you could, if you could have that time machine and you could go back to January 2020, you know, before 2 presidencies, before a hell of a lot of midterms, before the COVID crash, before a lot of shit. If you go back to January 2020 and you had a bag of money and you could buy Bitcoin, you could buy gold, you could buy silver, you could buy SPY, you could buy QS, you should have been still buying Bitcoin with a 100% of that, 100% of that. It's like 6 years. Six years later it's not even close.

Speaker 5: So physical Bitcoin, I don't ever disclose my exact business, but I've won Bitcoin in quite a bit longer than than 2020 and that so I've I always think that if you have no Bitcoin, the first thing you should buy is some Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: Hey, Joe, you got your hand up.

Speaker 5: I'll let you go.

Speaker 3: I want to go back to the justification that will be utilized, not an if. I think of this as a will and it comes the Fed chair. So #1 and there was the finalists all campaigning, although he wasn't top two at the end there, he was top, definitely top three was Christopher Waller. If you look at Waller's comment, which were echoed and praised recently by he said the following in January 1st. In contrast to the continued solid growth and economic activity, the labor market remains weak. Despite the downtick in recent readings, the unemployment rate has risen steadily. Payroll gains are very weak compared to the 10 year average of one point a million jobs. Let that sink in it for a moment. Zero job growth versus an average of almost 2,000,000 for the 10 years prior to 2025. This does not remotely look like a healthy labor market. Lower labor supply was surely a factor. It also indicates considerable weakness in labor demand. Second, though inflation is elevated from tariff effect, appropriate monetary policy is to quote, look through these effects. As long as inflation expectations are anchored, which they are, inflation excluding tariffs is running close to the Feds 2% target. On a path to that goal with total inflation excluding tariffs close to the target or just above 2% and a weak labor market, the rate should be closer to neutral, which the mean FOMC participant estimates is 3%. We're not, that's not where we're at 50 to 75 basis points above 3. And I favor lowering the policy rate to strengthen the labor market. That's a justification. That's why you're getting three cuts this year. It's already done. It's baked in. I don't think the market even believes it, but that's good. We don't want the market believing it. We want the guy to come in and probably cut even more aggressively than the three. I wouldn't be surprised if we get to four or five. So that's just my view.

Hector Lopez: That's well put, Joe. Yeah, the market doesn't believe it at all, which is really bullish if you're buying Bitcoin here.

Speaker 3: Do you remember earlier in the year? OK, Matt, there's a Operation Danish that was on here, Donish. He would argue that tariffs were going to cause re acceleration of inflation to 4 and 5%. He wasn't the only one. There were several other people on the Daily Finance Show that always made that claim. We're sitting here roughly where we were about a year ago, stuck in the higher threes and people say, oh, that's negative, that's bearish. No, I think it's great because if you look at the context, it came under a backdrop of significant global tariffs being put in place. So all these idea that we're going to have this massive move higher in inflation because of tariffs, OK, maybe 50 basis points. Maybe you could isolate 50 basis points to that move, which means that, you know, once those get resorted on the annualized basis, you're going to be back down to 2 1/2, you know, 2%, which is the target, by the way.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, yeah. Again, I come all the way back. I, I really don't know. I mean, unless you're just betting on black Swans and you think that the Iran conflict is going to escalate and other countries are going to get drawn in or some sort of like, unless you're betting on black Swans, I don't know what the bears are hanging their hat on.

Speaker 3: Joe, where do you see like a 30 year mortgage rate in like 6 months or 12 months? Like given those rate cuts and the fives like lo fi OK, so down, but not like insanely down like some people. No, no, I I think I don't, I think we hit generational bottoms on rates. That doesn't mean they have to soar higher. OK, but you're not thinking like a mortgage rates going to go back to where it was like during COVID. You're thinking like that won't be the case. OK, I got you, I got you. Are you looking to buy a house? Yeah, no, I'm looking to refinance though.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I, I don't think so. This is the weird part with the, with the rate cuts, I don't think housing prices are going to go down. I just because I think a bunch of buyers are going to, a bunch of buyers are going to come in with a lower rate, more demand, that's going to stoke more demand. So if anybody ever says to me, oh, well, interest rates will be, will cut down. No, you'll have people that are just lever up more, you know, to bid more for the houses and, and I I get that that's location specific also, but for the most part, I think housing prices will continue to go.

Speaker 3: Higher, I think they'll go higher yeah like 5% this year, probably 5% next year given the rates. I mean P, there's a lot of people on the sidelines I feel like and once they see like mid fives for a 30 year, I think people will get in. I could see, you know, some type of correction like later this decade, early next decade, but I think for the next couple of years, like, housing is at least going to stay where it is.

Hector Lopez: This would be super bullish for the housing builders though, because if you're right, if demand increases all the housing builders like they don't make money on resales. They only make money building new homes and selling it to new to new incoming homeowners. And they're just begging for a rate cut, maybe two or three, pretty please. And, and you're absolutely right, like every time you make a -25% or excuse me, a -25 BPS rate cut, you're, you're unlocking a new cohort of activity of buyers, of sellers and just volume. And it's, yeah, no one's no one's jumping out of bed and losing their mind over, you know, mortgage is falling from 5% to 475 or even 4-5. But when you, you know, push that out across the entire country, it's a massive effect.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You know, a a couple things and, and, and agree with what you're saying is that first of all, home construction is one of the biggest employers in the US and home construction, you cannot outsource anywhere outside the country. It has to be done on site. So from that perspective, by cutting interest rates, it can stoke the builders, which will hire more construction workers and build more homes, which is that's all a net good thing. So I think that that's, I think that that's great. I think the other thing that happens is that because the interest rates got so low during COVID, then they spiked up really high and now they're going lower. If people were sitting on the fence for 3-4 years, like let's say, you know, 2023-2024, they're like, I really want to buy a house. I got to wait for rates to get lower and we get halfway through 2026 and you know, you had a good job, you saved your money, you're planning to do this. Who's ever on the sidelines is going to be like, well, we've been waiting three years to buy a house, so let's go jump in and go do it as the rates go lower. And I think that that that's why the prices for home prices, I think will stay high. The other thing and I'm guessing I don't know and, and Joe, I want to hear your feedback on this, is that I think that if, if Kevin, if the Fed, if Kevin becomes the head of the Fed and if he cuts, which I believe most likely he would do like 1/2 a point 1st and then do 2 follow on cuts at 25 basis points because he wants to send a message that we're being serious. I don't think he would do the reverse quarter point, quarter point and then a half a point into the end of the year. I think he'd want to front end his rate cut. Does that sound about right?

Speaker 3: I mean, I don't if the S&P 500 NASDAQ are making new all time highs and let's say bitcoins over 100K, at that point when he's in, I don't see 50 basis points coming down. But if things are down kinda, then yeah, definitely.

Hector Lopez: I don't see, I don't, I don't think they're looking at the SPY to determine here we're going to cut or not. I mean, remember they've been cutting since 2023 and SPY and the QS have been making all time highs after all time highs for weeks, months, quarters and now 2 plus years. So I, I think the real egregious point is coming back to to Grain and Joe's point where you've got fed funds that's almost a whole percentage above CPI inflation. Again, you're literally paying a whole extra 1% to bondholders for the privilege of just holding the, the debt. I mean, our, the line item on US balance sheet for bonds is massive and you're telling me we're paying extra money to bondholders above CPI inflation like for a lot of reasons. And and not even counting whatever background handshake deal that Kevin Walsh and the president made for a lot of reasons, there's going to be some cuts immediately. And maybe it's 50, maybe it's 50 basis points out the gate, maybe it's 220 fives back-to-back. But there is a lot of room just bringing it in line with where inflation is. And you're still going to be restricted. Technically. Fed funds will still be higher than CPI inflation, which is still technically restricted.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, Matt, I, I, I, I'm going to ask you to be an expert in something that you probably aren't or anybody else on on the space. What do you think the current bill is for the Iran invasion? Over the past six weeks, $100 billion, 200 billion, I mean.

Hector Lopez: If.

Speaker 4: We're.

₿itcoin ₿ull: We're running right now, we're running about a $1.7 trillion yearly, yearly yearly deficit. And so it was like, oh, what's the Black Swan, You know, picking up Maduro was, you know, in in Venezuela probably. And that was probably like, I don't know, a couple billion dollars. I would have to guess and I didn't ask AI, but I would have to guess what's going on right now in Iran is going to be at least 100 billion, at least 100 bill. And and you, you tack that back on top of a $1.7 trillion shortfall, now you're at 1.8. So that's why you cut interest rates because you know, the budget, it's always balanced by the M2 money printing and they've they've got to buy either treasuries or bonds to offset that.

Speaker 3: I bet you today it's less than 5 billion.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You think it's less than 5 billion going into rhyme?

Hector Lopez: Less than No, no, we. No way. I I.

Speaker 3: I I mean, we've had these stockpiles for a little bit like this, this the spending has already happened, right?

Hector Lopez: Just one of The Jets that accidentally got shot out of the sky is worth 30.

Speaker 5: Yeah, so.

Speaker 3: Brilliant dollars. The thing you you got shot out of the sky. A little like current spending.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, OK, but you what you think oh we're not going to replace that like but I think no to the bigger point. To the bigger point what a difference one year makes Remember last year remember fiscal responsibility tighten the belt, doge Remember doge like no. And no one is talking You're absolutely right, Gray. No one is talking fiscal responsibility anymore. No one is talking about like cuts and and and and reforms and.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Cuts we we just had a guy saying he wants to know when the Stimpy checks are getting mailed out. I I thought we had a Republican as a president.

Hector Lopez: Right. So I mean, if whatever your whatever your hard asset du jour is, whether you know, love Bitcoin, love gold, you name it, whatever like you need to be long it and strong right now because you know what's coming.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, we got David with his hand up. Chime right in. Jump right in.

Hector Lopez: Hey, guys, can you hear me all right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Loud and clear.

Hector Lopez: Good, a couple of comments, good conversation. One is I wanted to tie together the price in gold and Bitcoin with some ideas and see what you guys think. So for Bitcoin price modeling, who I I find fascinated is David Ng. I don't know if you follow him, but I think he's an oil engineer. Very empirical. It's all math, there's no charts. It's not about momentum swings and chart squiggling, you know? And so basically my interpretation would be that it's power law as adoption model and then you superimpose macro events. And then there's market maker derivative effects and the combination of those, which is very complex, you know, is results in your Bitcoin prices day-to-day, you know, And so interesting thing about that is what's interesting that in gold is the power law adoption. So that's why Bitcoin beats gold because there is no power law adoption of gold. It's already adopted. It's just macro events and and derivative effects, which you know, are the similar effects. So then that ties to this whole gold thing. What happened with gold, according to Michael Howell, with cross-border capital, that was mostly China buying up all the gold. That was driven mostly by China. But the fact is the central banks and Tradfi, they just haven't really fully adopted the Bitcoin yet. And so this time, you know, they didn't go for the Bitcoin and they were buying gold. So that then brings me to this comments or post today from or yesterday from Chamath Papala Kaptia, I guess his name is. And I know you guys touched on this earlier, but I don't know how deeply you dug into it that claiming that there's just structural defect flaws with Bitcoin in ways that central banks will be disinclined to adopt it. It deters adoption by central banks. And I could expand on that bit, but basically it's two prisons were privacy, lack of privacy and lack of fungibility and so that central banks are not going to be quick to adopt.

₿itcoin ₿ull: OK. Can I, can I chime in on that Salmouth part, you know?

Hector Lopez: Yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Look, that may be the dumbest crap that I've heard in a long time, because anybody can go to the Saint Louis fed right now. Their their website, Fred. That's that's I'm referring specifically to the that their website for this and you can pull up, you know, the, the balance sheet for the, for the Federal Reserve every single every single week. So, so you can do that. And so this concept that we should hide the amount of Bitcoin that we have and we do have we do have a line item for gold on it. Now for some reason, I believe it's, it's dollarized to 40 bucks and $0.25. So it should be sure the correct dollar amount and there should be an audit. I think we all agree to this. There should be an audit. So this concept that the government and by the way, the government works for the citizens, we believe that the government should be, should have to do audits and we should be able to see what they hold and what what there is. And what he is saying is completely and you know, antithetical to the way government works these they should be able to tell us, we should be able to have an audit that's verifiable. What they're saying is true. And so when he says, oh, we should be able to keep this private and secret, that's BS. And any publicly traded company has to pass audits. A private company is different. But the US government or any government is beholden to the people. And so when he says that that's anti American, I would say it right to his face, Dude, what you're saying is anti American. Why? Why shouldn't they? In fact, you know, the sovereign wealth fund for Norway, you know, publishes all their positions and all the assets that they buy, right? And so it's like, why would a government not want to give that information to their citizens and hide it as a secret? I think that's BS. That's my opinion.

Hector Lopez: I'm inclined to agree with that, although of course it's global, includes global banks of China and Russia.

Speaker 5: And well, for those.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. For those countries, if they want, if their people, if those governments think that their citizens are not entitled to that information, that's those governments. But here in America, we, we get all kinds of information from things from the Federal Reserve and we get all kinds of good CPI. We get every week, we get all this information that comes through. And this has been going on for, I don't know, 50 years. I mean, obviously with websites, it's been going on for 2530, you know, 30 years. And the fact that we wouldn't get this information on that, I don't know how he says that. And the fact that nobody would push back on him with something like this shows the bubble that he lives in.

Hector Lopez: I think there was pushback. I think it's pretty weak too, because not only that, but I think there are ways to have privacy with Bitcoin. I mean, I have money in my bank account. If I go get money out of the cash machine, nobody knows what I do with that, with that money. You know, that cash, you can take some of your central bank Bitcoin, convert it into gold and you can do whatever you want with that gold. Nobody's going to know what you did with it. So seems like it's pretty weak. Now the fungibility thing is interesting and worth drilling down onto as well. And, and we can talk about that, but Bitcoin, one Bitcoin does not equal 1 Bitcoin. That's a fact. But also $1.00 does not equal $1.00. I mean, that's why we have money laundering laws and that sort of thing, right? They're, they're dirty dollars and they're clean dollars and they're dirty Bitcoin and they're clean Bitcoin. So that's real, but it's not unique to Bitcoin. I would say it also springs the thought that, you know, what the government, you know, could do is if there's dirty Bitcoin, you confiscate those Bitcoin. Well, as soon as the government has it, now they're clean Bitcoin. And that's how you build your Bitcoin strategic reserve is confiscate dirty Bitcoin. And now they're clean Bitcoin as soon as the government has them and says now these are clean, right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: So what you just said, and I'm smiling as I'm saying this, is that, that any government that buys that, that seizes a dirty Bitcoin. And for instance, the US did this with the Silk Road coins. So they confiscated the coins. Then Tim Draper bought them in, in a, in a, in a US Marshals auction. And then he 30 what is 30? Some 38,000 bitcoins and it was sub 1000 bucks when he bought them and, and then he moved them. So basically the US laundered those bitcoins for him. And he he can say, yeah, these are now clean bitcoins because where'd you get with the provenance? I got them from, you know, the US government. So therefore they have to be clean. It's like if you mine your own Bitcoin, then you know, they're clean because it's a, it's a brand new Bitcoin. So I agree with you and I, I don't think bitcoins are fungible. And I'll give a good example. If a, if a, if a 2010 Bitcoin moves, everybody freaks out about it on, on X. Oh my God, what does this OG guy know about why did a 2010 or a 2011 Bitcoin? Why, why did Bitcoin move from this old wallet to a newer wallet? Oh, he must be selling his whole stack. That's it. Bitcoins going to dump. I mean, that's always, that's always the thought process. And so from that perspective, you know, what Chamath said I think was really not well thought through. I, I don't know his motivation for saying that. That's what I can't figure out.

Hector Lopez: I don't know, he reminds me so I love Game of Thrones. He reminds me of the remember the merchant Prince of Corth, Zorro Doxos. Long story short, it was this merchant that was pretending to be just the richest man in all the city. And he kept pointing to his big vault. Look at that giant big vault of that golden vault with a massive heavy door. I'm so rich, look at my look at my vault. And inside the vault there was nothing. It was empty, but he was just getting by on he, you know, he was, he was making a meal out of his prestige and power and talking about his incredible wealth. But when they finally came to open the vault and look inside, it turns out he had nothing. And to me, like, why would you? Why are you so scared about other entities knowing exactly how much Bitcoin is in your wallet? It's not you can't. You're not at risk of getting it confiscated. You're not at risk of getting hacked. You're not at risk of, of, of losing those coins. You're just afraid of anyone knowing how much or how little you actually own. And that's the problem with gold. Like, you know, you have plenty of countries that talk about, Oh yeah, we've got this and that gold reserves. People are super skeptical of even EU s s Fort Knox gold reserves. But until you actually crack open the vault and look in the underground sellers and and behind the blast doors, you have no idea how much a little of that gold is still there. How much has been promised to other entities, how much of it is lent out, how much of it never existed. That's the problem with gold. And that's like, I'm not surprised that central banks still have their problems with Bitcoin and preferred gold because you're right, they can play games, they can play Fiat games, they can play high jinks. They can promise that gold five ways out before the weekends here. Like you can't do that with hard asset like Bitcoin. You you all that all those games and shenanigans and high jinks. It gets seen immediately and you're absolutely right Gray and you move some wallet that dates back to 2012. I'm sure some people freak out and and they can. But you know what like but you can't you can't hide. You can't shade, you can't hide, you can't trick what what you're doing. And that, I think that's a good thing.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah. So I think, you know, I think this is an interesting point about gold is that the gold bags got pumped by the central banks buying gold. It was not, it was not the average guy. There was no, there's no Michael Saylor of gold, just as not there's no company that's buying up, you know, a billion dollars worth of gold every two weeks. It just does not exist. So those gold bugs, you know, this is the hardest money ever. Well, the only reason why your price ran up is because basically a bunch of central banks wanted to buy it because they don't like the United States. And so I'm not saying that it's a bad thing. I'm just saying that's kind of the way it played out. And good for them. They they did well the.

Hector Lopez: Population in China as well, according to how what happened was China had a liquidity crisis, they pumped out one and that resulted in a gold rush. They don't have Bitcoin is not available in China. So both central bank and the population were buying gold in China. I mean, maybe the move from 1500 or even 2000 to 4000, maybe even 4500, but there's a certain percentage on the top that is absolutely family offices, hedge funds, wealthy entities, hundreds of millions of GQ public buying paper shares of iShares Gold and iShares Silver with money they don't really have. And that's how you get one of the largest liquidations, one of the biggest red candles of silver's history ever. That was not, you know, that's not, that's not, that's not an accident. That's that's real people going deep in leverage, buying on margin and promising assets that they can't afford to lose. And then when the bank comes calling, OK, you're, you're carried out on a stretcher. And sure, over a long time, gold can absolutely go higher. But what if this is also 20/12/2013? What if we're, you know, what if in two years or five years we look back and like wow, that was a what do you know that was its once a decade blow off top. And I hope everyone's comfortable with a five year bear market.

Speaker 3: Well, probably has a lot, has a lot longer to run before it does that, but it'll do that. Probably could go to 10K good I think.

Hector Lopez: Could it could struggle like right now it just made a lower high. You could do a lot of things, but what's going to double first? Bitcoin or gold? It's to me.

Speaker 3: Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: And I'm not even.

Speaker 3: I wasn't.

Hector Lopez: So what are we? What are?

Speaker 3: We gold I think is going to be kind of choppy for a couple more years, at least against the S&P 500 I kind of think. And then I think you need like a recession for gold to really have another, another major run like against the S&P 500. And I think that's years away. Like I think that's at least kind of like 3 years away. But at that point then I could see gold kind of making like probably if you're talking about like 12K10 Ki, think at least like early twenty 30s, like it's gonna take time. Gold is generally a slow mover. Like I mean, even AK is probably like at least like four or five years away. I think it's generally a slow mover.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, Gold had his little 15 minutes of fame.

Hector Lopez: I would like to think bitcoins going to outrun gold here quicker than most people think, because you have AI coming online and gentek AI using digital capital, it's going to gravitate towards Bitcoin and you just don't have the growth adoption of gold that you do in Bitcoin. Like I said earlier. So today's Section 1 real quick comment. You know, so this kind of started from what I understand, BlackRock put a huge buy in pre trading hours, you know, on on I bit and drove up Bitcoin price. And so I think you could explain this is just along the model of David inks. This was just a squeeze, a little squeeze we had today. There were people that got caught off sides and short squeeze and we ran the price up. And that's why the power law is useful because we know we're way off. So we're just going to be seeing more of these and less downturns because we're going to squeeze up and up and up. It's just going to ratchet up while the market makers try and get, you know, maintain control. It's just going to ratchet back up towards the power law mean.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It's.

Speaker 3: Here's the thing about gold and Bitcoin gold. What is the market cap? It's in the trillions and trillions of dollars, right? Yeah, it was Bitcoin. It was like 1.1 trillion or it's hovering somewhere.

Hector Lopez: What are we? Yeah, 14.

Speaker 3: 30 times the the market cap Bitcoin, I mean bitcoins almost a nothing in comparison to gold or even any other global asset market like look at real estate fucking monster right. So so to think of hey, where does get coin going compared to the other assets? This thing has a rest of the world to eat.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I agree.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey guys, I got a drop. I just want to say thank you. I have a a true north that goes on at 7 O clock Pacific Standard Time and we talked about the company strategy formerly known as micro strategy. So if you guys want to jump in that in 1/2 an hour, I'll be talking with those guys. Thanks. Thank you for coming up to green. Thanks. Bye.

Hector Lopez: Yeah. Thanks Green.

Speaker 3: I think that both gold and Bitcoin are going to go way higher over the next few years. I'm bullish on both. I hold both. Obviously I hold way more way more Bitcoin, but.

Hector Lopez: You hold gold too, Asteroid.

Speaker 3: Silver, gold, I hold, I hold.

₿itcoin ₿ull: MSTR.

Speaker 3: I I've held I've held gold and silver since like 2010.

Hector Lopez: I didn't know you.

Speaker 5: Had not that much.

Speaker 3: Not that much, but I in the summer I, I said I was like gold looks like it's going to hit 10 or 5K. So I fucking loaded up on call options. Some of them are so deep in the money, they're like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm surprised you didn't sell none yet, you've been saying that for a while.

Speaker 3: I've been selling them. I've been selling them but I have some that's a sell signal for gold asteroid.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Everybody.

Speaker 5: I.

Hector Lopez: Have time to sell guys.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I have I.

Speaker 3: Have a bunch that are so deep in the money I've been selling short calls on top of them.

₿itcoin ₿ull: How's the perfect time to sell it and get into more into Bitcoin? But I'm sure you do that already.

Speaker 3: I'm pretty good with my allocation of Bitcoin. I don't really add much here anymore. I just let it ride. If I add shit, I'm adding like other other things. But but yeah, I'm not bullish on silver.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I think silver.

Speaker 3: Will.

Speaker 5: More.

Speaker 3: Adobe, dude, fucking I'm done with Adobe. I'm buying. I was buying. I was loaded up on service now at like 100 if you recall already 115. So I think I'm done with that. Then it'll go back to 200 and then I'll scale out.

₿itcoin ₿ull: He's waiting for what the heck's the name of it, Chachi PT to go public. What the Hell's there?

Hector Lopez: Opening.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I couldn't think of the parent company for a second. It will.

Speaker 3: Literally load up and put options right.

Hector Lopez: And then as.

Speaker 3: Soon as they go public as.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Soon as there, who's going to go public first? Them or a topic?

Speaker 3: I don't think it's.

Hector Lopez: I can't this.

Speaker 3: Doesn't really have any plans to I I from what I heard there's a open.

₿itcoin ₿ull: AI, I think they do, no.

Hector Lopez: No, no, they're up again. They're up is trying.

₿itcoin ₿ull: To yeah, that's what you say. I think they're, I think they're trying.

Hector Lopez: Half, half the valuation, but.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah.

Speaker 3: I don't pay how much open?

Hector Lopez: They're all, they're all in a, they're all in a race. SpaceX is trying to get out the gate and you know you. SpaceX includes XAI, so they're all trying to go public.

Speaker 3: Who who actually uses ChatGPT? Like does anybody here use it at all?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Not no more.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's what it's like. I don't see anybody use it at all. Do you guys use Claude? Is that what it and throttle?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, well, it's the pretty best, Claude.

Speaker 3: Is I use Gemini and Claude so I go like.

Hector Lopez: Geminis for most tests I I go to the library.

Speaker 3: And I go to just to. I do go to the library sometimes, just look at books and check what people are using and also go to the coffee shop. I just like.

Hector Lopez: To see dude.

Speaker 3: I saw 100% ChatGPT probably a month or two ago and now it's slowly inching towards like half claw. I mean, opening eyes. Just the level of the level of like lead that they're losing so quickly is, is crazy. I mean it's just dude. And they keep burning.

Hector Lopez: Just look at the app. Just just look at the App Store number 1 app.

Speaker 3: It's crazy, right? It's not.

Hector Lopez: It's not chat.

Speaker 3: GPT, they had a massive fucking lead, now they're getting smoked. The problem, I don't know. I don't. I honestly don't know how they will exist without that.

Hector Lopez: Requirement in a few.

Speaker 2: Years I I they still.

Hector Lopez: Well, they say like, but they're go ahead. Not they're the AO, they're AOL. You know, they were first. I mean, honestly, they were, hey, they invented the they they were first to invent the MP3 player. And then here comes Apple.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Unfortunately, they're going to call everything tatty. PT moving towards oh they.

Speaker 5: Won't.

Hector Lopez: Even.

Speaker 3: Yeah, they just, we'll be like GPT and they'll be like, what the fuck is that right?

Hector Lopez: Right. Or like Kleenex, and you don't mean Kleenex, you just, you know, give me a tissue. I think you're right. But.

Speaker 3: The die off so they just don't take the rest of the market with.

Hector Lopez: Them I mean, but but it's but you could see like you can feel it, you can see it and organically people are moving and voting with their feet and their dollars that Chad GBT loses in real time data to Gemini Pro. It's not even close. They lose to XAI in terms of if you want anything, anything that hits history on Twitter X well, obviously you're using Grog. And if you want code writing, come on, you're in Claude, you're in Cursor, you're in Windsurfer.

Speaker 3: You're not in chat.

Hector Lopez: GPT. So what is ChatGPT?

Speaker 3: What are they?

Hector Lopez: What are they? I have no idea. What are they superior in? I have. No, I don't.

Speaker 3: Think I just like how the app works. I don't know like the the the way it you know what I.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Mean. What do you mean?

Hector Lopez: You like how it open and closes?

Speaker 3: No, what is it? No, like when you type to it and now it like vibrates your phone or whatever it's like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Different, you know.

Hector Lopez: He likes.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Viber a little.

Hector Lopez: He's the common man. That's what you know what that's what they they need to come out with a premium subscription that lets you change the icon color and, you know, customize the vibrations for for those.

Speaker 3: Types like the font. I like the font better on Shachi.

Hector Lopez: BT no, I'm serious.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I do I.

Speaker 5: Like, are you being serious?

Speaker 3: Put the words like slowly, they're not all at once. Models are fucking dog shit. Move.

Hector Lopez: On it is awful. It's gonna, it's gonna have a, it's gonna have a premium light and dark mode.

Speaker 3: It's gotten worse, though. Now it's gotten worse. The new.

Hector Lopez: Models are not as.

Speaker 3: Good. Like a year ago was much better compared to the competition. Only the new models with bigger, with more parameters and bigger size are like I remember I used to be able to ask it a question like estimate how many women Bill Clinton has cheated on Hillary with and it would give me like an actual number like, you know, something like that. Now I asked the same question yesterday. It's like, I can't answer that, you know, they're like, come.

₿itcoin ₿ull: On, you know, you know, I noticed with with rock with the pictures where you could, you know, have it make your own photos or whatever. I was going to tease my cousin and and tell him to put a do something embarrassing. I think it was like a bikini or something to pick on him. And it it denied me from that. I said it could be used for, you know, for embarrassing people or something along the lines of that. I was like, wow, I never used to do that before.

Hector Lopez: What for rock?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I was surprised. Oh, really?

Speaker 3: Yeah, they got because everybody was complaining about it on Twitter.

₿itcoin ₿ull: There must be something they use for bullying or something, you know, put in maybe a kid and you know, something that doesn't look good and they get bullied. That's the only that I could think of.

Hector Lopez: My tests, You know, everyone's got these advanced tests for the the AI models to see who's doing well, but like we just, we just finished earning season and that's the easiest test for me. I just put some advanced earnings questions. I send them to Gemini, I send them to Gorac, I send them to ChatGPT and without a doubt, every single time ChatGPT is always in last place. They just have such a problem with real time latest data and, and until they solve that, like they're terrible, like you can't tell me you can't even pull latest data on on things that are happening this week, this month. What? I don't need you for anything else then, because you're always going to be 2nd, 3rd, 4th to the punch.

Speaker 3: Do you remember? See the paper that Apple put out on the alms.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, I haven't seen it, no.

Speaker 3: It's basically like. It's basically a diss track in terms of like, hey, these things can't think, they're just approximation models like.

Hector Lopez: We.

Speaker 3: Think reinforcement learning is better. Like that type of thing is kind of interesting. Reed They're not they're not consistent, that's for sure. So like when people talk about that, we're going to have agents running everything that have no oversight at all and no human in the loop. But it just doesn't look that way at this point until we develop a new type of model. Which one in your guy's opinion is the best memory? Like if you tell it stuff like which one could remember stuff for sure?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Claude yeah. And it automatically goes, I told you this the other day, Asteroid, it was a new update that day. But if you talk, if you talk to Claude, it goes back in the chats and automatically chats even.

Speaker 3: The Gemini memory is a little bit a little bit weird.

Hector Lopez: It's pretty, it's decent. It's pretty good, Gemini.

Speaker 3: But I I actually I I Claude knows my entire life. All that basket. I was like, dude, what do you know about me? It basically knows everything, so I don't know whatever. Yeah, I'm the same way, man. I I use Gemini pretty heavily. I also use the anti gravity, which it's fun to like make the vibe cool Bullshit. No, I love. I love Gemini.

Hector Lopez: Claude is Claude is definitely.

Speaker 3: I like how it can go.

Hector Lopez: Gemini Pro sells the A tier.

Speaker 3: Get all your records and you can ask it what I buy like at this day and stuff.

Hector Lopez: Oh, I mean, yeah, if you're a, if you're a Gmail, Google Drive user, you need to be using Gemini Pro. That's just.

Speaker 3: I had to get my cats new vaccinations and I was like, oh, when do they need vaccinations? It was like, let me pull up the middle records from your e-mail and like put a table out and it was correct. I was like, oh, thank you. Well.

Speaker 2: She's amazing.

Speaker 3: Because or if any mail is a student on here, you get Gemini pro for free for I think it's a year or two. So that's like a nice I'm a college student, but I can't find it, so I paid for it. Yeah, we'll guys, I got a good question. Reset your e-mail. If you guys had to pay for three AIS, which AIS would they be? Claude. Claude Pro and Claude Max.

Hector Lopez: Well, I'll just say that's really just just because you guys were asking about how AI remembers your previous conversations. I asked him about like, how do you make a frozen hamburger in an oven? And then like maybe 3 weeks later, I asked. He was like, how did that hamburger and the frozen hamburger work? Yeah, like it was my holy shit. Like, hello. I was like, that one's fucking cool. Yeah.

Speaker 3: It's funny. Nice.

Hector Lopez: It is funny. That's a pretty small data set, though. They do have limited context windows, right? If you get too complex, they Max out. Yeah, I, I, we're using that and.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Claude it, it's it, it compresses there or something. So I keep using the same chat. I don't even go to another chat no more.

Speaker 3: No, you don't want to do that Bitcoin even if it it can, because when it compresses it, it still loses memories.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, if I start a new chat, I have to remind you of everything or tell it to go back and yeah, but you want certain spots even though it remembers the past you want.

Speaker 3: One chat. You want one chat per per like project and theme.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But it's kind of like a continuation with Claude Bot. It's kind of like, all right, this happened now. And when I've been staying on the same chat, I don't even have to tell it to go back. It just remembers the previous stuff.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the downside of like this Claude bot stuff like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Because then you gotta explain everything to it again, right? And it doesn't know like.

Speaker 5: We.

Speaker 3: Need a new model where it doesn't have to just.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It it only it'll but it it does go back and like remember some stuff, it just not it'll it'll bring back memory from like a week ago instead of like yesterday. That's the bad part about it.

Speaker 3: I I I posted and that's the Apple Paper so if Amy is interested.

Hector Lopez: I've noticed, I don't know how long it's been there, but Grok has the history feature now. That's very slick. So you have a conversation. I've always stored them all. It's been there for a long time. I store them all. I save it into a a Chrome file and it linked the Grok conversation plus the text and just have a bunch of those, you know? But now you just hit your history and it'll go back and you can pick up wherever you left off on a prior conversation, which I'm not sure was there before.

Speaker 3: Well I think it's honest. Thing about Grok is I don't know if anybody knows about the other AI models, but seem like Grok has like an agent feature now. Well, like that's because like the beta and you can kind of select them and it's like 1 orchestrator and then it like sends out multiple other agents. Don't they all have that now? Even Traci BT I haven't tried that yet. Grok sucks, man. I can't even use it. No, I guess like it's more of a question. I don't know, like I was asking, Hey, are you going, I don't understand this paper because everybody knows that they don't reason who thought, who thought they reason. It's just a predictive text. Yeah, yeah, it it's weird though, but I mean, I thought it was kind of interesting because like Apple's the one where it's like they're not really either they're not trying or they're failing behind the scenes. One of the two oh, they're going to win. They're just going to literally like embed a free model to the phone call a day and and that just waste all the not to spend all the CapEx.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I got a question for you guys. You know how like people were buying the Mac mini and stuff like that. It's like, yeah, like, like, what if you like? What if you don't have like a like a technical computer digital job and like how can you use it for just a normal everyday, I don't know, everyday Joe Joe Schmo like how can AI help like 'cause I'm trying to think like what can like other than all.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right. You're better off just you're better off just getting a 20 hour subscription to Claude and his Zoom. Yeah, you don't.

Hector Lopez: Need it.

Speaker 3: You don't need that if you're if you don't even know the basic.

Hector Lopez: If you're not a developer and stuff like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That.

Speaker 3: Well, I guess, Pat, you're in construction, right? Like that's your professional.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, yeah, just like a basic, very basic laborer.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So like here's an idea is like, hey, Gemini, this is what I do. Like is there a better way I can go about it? Or like these are all the materials that buy every single day that's going to be called. But you can just use a regular Gemini for help. You don't need a cloudbot or a mini.

₿itcoin ₿ull: If you're going to, if you want to use Cloudbot for a simple thing you know you can use for somebody like you, maybe just like emails, you can have a set up an e-mail or give it an e-mail and it can make emails for you. It could text. It could text people for you in.

Speaker 3: Seven months. Oh, Bitcoin bull. Actually, I was thinking about how to make this secure, but I don't want to give away my secret, but I think I found a way to make it. I might set it up.

₿itcoin ₿ull: What? Maybe I'll I'll the thing The thing you talk. Oh, you mean you're going to do clawbot?

Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was like, I wanted to use it for emails and stuff, but I couldn't figure out a way to make it secure and and I was like then.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'll just give it a new e-mail. What do you mean?

Speaker 3: Yeah, but then you can't use it for your emails that come in. This is. So did you buy a Mac mini asteroid? No, I thought about it because my MacBook Pro is broken and I needed a replacement and I was like, maybe I'll check one of those, but I'm not. I don't think I'm going to do Clawbot. Maybe I'll do it and then I'll wipe it, but I don't really trust it. Does open AI own the fucking repo now? For that I don't want, I don't know, I don't want anything to do with open AI like I think they are No, but because they hired the dude, right? Yeah. Why? I don't know. Then like, I need you to do anything. Open AI, completely demonic, disgusting company. And I think Sam probably will end up in jail.

Hector Lopez: Yo, let me ask you guys this, like are you able to like hey, can you ask Roc 4.1 to interact with Claude and then like start like a three-way call between 3 AI engines? Could they be compatible together?

Speaker 3: Yeah, but it won't. Wait, wait, wait. You mean them talking to each other?

Hector Lopez: Yeah, like cross, cross crossing the different AI streams.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But what are you trying to accomplish though?

Hector Lopez: Maybe like an aggregate?

Speaker 3: Yeah, you could do that, but I don't think it there's not really a benefit of that it'd.

Hector Lopez: Probably be sloppy right it.

Speaker 3: Probably would just. I guess that reminds me of the prank call, The old prank call where someone would call a Chinese restaurant and they would put the phone on speaker on another phone, call another Chinese restaurant and have them talk to each other. Oh.

Hector Lopez: Like they're Jerky Boys.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Like those?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Always listen to all the Jerky Boys back in a days.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. It's funny, but it's you're not going to get much out of that. This is the long cut. It's like, no, you called me. No, you called me. Wait, wait, wait. This is wait.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah. So you're going to go down that route, asteroid, you're going to pull the trigger and stuff on with it.

Hector Lopez: What?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Claude Bop.

Speaker 3: Not anytime soon, but if I get one Mac mini I need it to be better with the computer so if I do it I'll probably just do it for fun than wipe it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah. Tell me how you figured out the e-mail part, because I'm interested in it. You could, you could mess with them. It's it's.

Speaker 3: Like a fucking The thing is, people are trying to figure out security things and I figured out a way to make it secure and I'm like, I wonder if I can make some cash on it, like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: There's a way you can do that. Well, that's the best. This is that that's why you should especially you right, because you're in the business. That's why you need to fool around with Claudebot because you'll start seeing all the you know, the things that people are going to need and you probably can, you know, benefit off of that because you know, you know how to make it better. There's all these there's so many different avenues that look at Fred with the with the AI marketplace. That's a great fucking idea. You have all these AI agents looking to do things. If you have a marketplace where they could go and, and use, you know, the different things that Fred's providing for them, that's fucking great. You're ahead of the the curve.

Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a way to do it. It popped in.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You could just jump in, Bob. You don't have to raise your hand.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I was just going to say a lot of people are using resend.com to get e-mail for their bot. You got to have a domainlike.com. But the interesting thing there is like asteroid, you know this, you can set up rules to forward your emails to your bot, certain emails, so you it's not getting everything and then have it do certain things with that. So you just got to be creative. You got to think kind of outside the box. It's not perfect and that's correct. Another thing is you can try to develop like use MCP and develop like a e-mail priority system, right? And they'll score it and you're.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Like, OK, I'll look at.

Speaker 3: These generate responses and then I'll look at them and then I'll send it through the other address. That's that's right. That's exactly what I was thinking, but with the MCP classifier.

Speaker 4: On top of it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a good idea. I, what I did was I actually set up a Proxmox old computer, just a computer that an old HP slice or whatever, these small mini PCs that I had laying around and set up prox MOX, which what that does is allows you to set up virtual machines. And so I just put it on its own virtual machine and then asked it how to improve itself for security. And it told me all of the holes that it had in it. It just helped me update itself to make it more secure. So it can be done. It's just it does take a little bit of time and and work, but it's pretty cool.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I've been fooling around with mine almost every single day.

Hector Lopez: Yo, sorry, I remember there's that that thing called Raspberry Pi. Like can you still continue to update that same hardware from back in like the mid from the mid 2000s? Or is there like a new release of the Raspberry Pi which is still similarly the same thing but just maybe a little more powerful?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I think they have a a bigger version of that, but I don't know if you can run Clawbot on a Raspberry Pi. That's probably a question for Asteroid.

Speaker 3: You can actually, I think it's the PI5 is the newest one and there are people putting like a a smaller version of open call on it and running these little, little assistance that are on the Raspberry Pi. Obviously, like if you're trying to store a lot of information on it, it's not going to be good. But if you're just using it kind of for routing and connect it to your AI, then it's fine. That's what I was going to say. You don't really need a huge box to run this because it's not doing any compute. It's just passing the it's just passing your shit to the to the clutter via the API. If you want to use your own model, it's been your own open source but.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Why do they recommend the the the Mac mini if they don't need something that?

Speaker 3: I don't really know because it can be. You can put this on like a shitty laptop. I think I, I don't think it takes up that, but I don't think the footprint's that big. I don't really know why. I think that's the SIOP. I think that there's people who were part of the original release of this that are probably getting paid to have.

Hector Lopez: Yeah. Well, listen, I know it was a certain. I thought it was a certain like gig that you needed to have of the of the Mac mini like a certain like.

Speaker 3: What's the size of?

Hector Lopez: Him or something. That's what I've heard, anyway.

Speaker 3: No, I mean, honestly, it's it's you can run it on literally anything Windows, you can run it on Linux is the best, I think, but you can also run it on Mac. It just seems like people are kind of Apple fanboys and they were getting a lot of free hardware and so they that's what they were pushing. People like think that it's it's yeah, it's I think it grew out of the fact that people wanted to run like the open AI models and stuff. And then they just had this because to run the open source to bigger open source models, you sort of need those, those Big Mac minis, the one terabyte.

Speaker 4: Yeah, if you have a Mac mini with a lot of RAM, you can run local models and you can even like Daisy chain them together.

₿itcoin ₿ull: From what I've heard.

Speaker 4: But if you're going to be using the Cloud API, you're you're. You don't need any of that.

Speaker 3: So it was a kind of a scam. I didn't even really think about it.

Speaker 4: Oh, another big advantage why people use the I the Mac mini is so that it can iMessage or AirDrop. That's one.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I do like the iMessage feature. That's what I use every day. I don't.

Speaker 3: So you can use an old shitty computer too, like an old laptop.

Hector Lopez: Plus, I don't know, I'm Android to the hilt. I never had anything Apple in my life. Why I, I just, I don't know, man. I've I've been just.

Speaker 3: Fucking hating Android. I thought it would dash.

Hector Lopez: And then and then it went from there to Windows 95. I didn't look back.

Speaker 3: I I got an Android phone once just tried out and I was like Oh my God, this is awful right back to I don't know. I didn't like it. I hated it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Back in the days everybody had Androids, I had Samsung's and stuff, but then when Apple I had a Samsung.

Speaker 3: Nothing is junk.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I I thought the opposite in the beginning, like in 2000, and I would say 5:00-ish or no, maybe a little earlier than that.

Hector Lopez: Galaxy Gruner, check it in into the hardware a little bit. What I found was, yeah, you can run it on a you can run it on a Raspberry Pi, you can run it on any laptop, You can run it on just about anything. But the reason they're pushing the Mac mini supposedly is something like a neurocore neurocore chip, which is supposed to be AI suited. It's faster.

Speaker 5: It's better.

Hector Lopez: And then, well, and then if you're running, if you're processing images and video, then you may even need a studio if you're going to do like a lot of video processing. And some people are doing that for money, generating AI videos and stuff. And I would say one thing I was just wondering, there must be a reason why all that stuff got sold out, because maybe it had something that the others didn't have. No.

Speaker 3: No, it's, it's they're paying, they're paying them, they're giving them free hardware so that they can go out there and influence people. That's, that's really what it is. I mean, The thing is, is like you could go buy. I mean, I know people that are running this on like a 2014 MacBook. I mean, it's it doesn't take anything. It's pretty lightweight.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Claude is also.

Speaker 4: Doing that which might shouldn't.

Speaker 5: Be just.

Speaker 4: Go out and make content highlighting Claude. They'll just give you tokens.

Hector Lopez: Dude, I wasn't sure if it was like it was like similar, like it's not like you're mining Bitcoin here, right? So like that's, that's what I was like, OK, these, these, these language models, but these.

Speaker 3: Are a little.

Hector Lopez: Like this clod and this other thing. This ain't just your Grock 4.1. This is like a cut above, right? This does some other high level stuff. Am I right with that? No.

Speaker 3: It it really does nothing by itself. It's it you need you you need.

Speaker 5: Nothing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, you need large language models to tie it into. So you have to connect it to your account or you have to have another machine that's running that you know, has the power to run a large language model or multiple. And so like people either spend tokens, so you're renting it or you buy the hardware and you run your own models and you connect it to that. And you know, trade-offs with both, right?

Hector Lopez: Very cool. All right, man, I was way off. I have. Yeah. Very, very interesting stuff. It requires energy to run these stuffs like as as far as kilowatt hours.

Speaker 3: Nothing in terms of like, I mean it's no more than your normal computer if you're just using it as open claw on a cheap device. But if you are running a separate computer or you know, one of these high end MacBook or a Mac Studio Pro or you know any of the NVIDIA machines, the desktops, then you're, you know, you are using certainly some wattage there and it's going to cost you some money. But again, it's like, do you want to pay for the hardware and pay for the electricity to run your own model and have a little bit of privacy and more control? Or do you want to rent it from Anthropic, from Google, Gemini, from from Open AI and you're renting it, you're paying tokens as you go and that you're also training their model and you lose all of your privacy?

Hector Lopez: OK, My last question here is I'm talking one when you say I'm thinking like what kind of like PSU were you thinking like 807 fifty Watt to run this like let's say mat mini plugged into the wall?

Speaker 3: It doesn't it. It actually doesn't run on that much like there is no, it's not like a a Bitcoin miner where you have to upgrade your your power and you got to run 240 or something. It's not like that at all. It's basically a high end computer that's running and met use, you know, at peak 3032 watts. So like it's just consuming energy to run the GPU's and process the the stuff if you're running it at your house.

Hector Lopez: The other reason for the Mac minis or any of these minis is what they're designed for is continuous on use with low power use. So a Mac mini runs it's I'm looking at your 5 to 10 watts at idle. So they're on all the time and they don't use much power. A laptop is not really meant to be sitting there, you know, and be on all the time. But one probably the best piece of advice, I'm guessing for someone that's like, oh, I'm curious about this and you know, I want to set up a cloud bot is not to do it if you don't know what you're doing as you can really wreck yourself installing that on your own computer. And I bet it can lead to a world of hurt because it gets out into the world and, you know, you have to know what you're doing in terms of operation security to be messing around with that thing, I would think.

Speaker 4: Yeah, a good way to think of it is, is open claw is like the hands to the AI. So previously if you've done a technical task with AI, it'll tell you you don't run this command, run that command and you have to manually do it. Open Claw gives the AI hands to actually do it.

Speaker 3: I'm more interested in running open source LLMS privately than I am with the claw bot. Yeah, and that's, that's where I've gone Asteroid is basically I went from using using clawed ChatGPT, as you know, the the LLMS to running a I'm using AI just got it yesterday, actually HPDGX, which uses an NVIDIA chip. And now I'm in the process of basically switching my clawed bot over to the local models and it's doing it. So which one are you going to use? So for different tasks, I've downloaded a few. So I have the basically your general model that's like, you know, supposed to be fast and responsive like an assistant. And then that model actually is what's that? Which which one are you talking about? Because there's a bunch of open source. Yeah. So it's that Gwen lower model. It's like a Gwen 2.5 and it's just supposed to be for speed. Who's that from? That's a llama. Oh, really? OK. And then, and then that one, what you do is you tell that one like once you have it and, and you know, instructed, you tell it to basically spin up persistent sub agents and it'll make permanent sub agents on built on different models. And it'll even suggest to you like how to do it. So you can tell it like, Hey, I want one that's really good for coding. I want one for a research that can like scan the Internet and social media. I want another persistent agent for reasoning. And I want another one for, you know, like heavy tasks that are going to use up more GPU, like a a heavy coder or a heavy researcher. And then you just download the models, tell it what you got, and it will literally spawn these these other sub agents and then you chat with them individually. But you can also just have your main guy or gal, whatever you want to call it, kind of orchestrate everything for these other bots that are built on top of these other alms. Quinn Yeah, you can.

Speaker 4: Even it's QWENI was just checking out also.

Speaker 3: It says Ali Baba. Wow.

Speaker 4: Yeah, they do make it, but so I I started with a quad subscription. I think I have the five times plan and I use that, but sometimes I hit a limit. So I recently set up one on a Raspberry Pi like you guys were saying and it uses OLAM on my Windows gaming computer for the for the AI and you can literally ask it to help you right size things. So like when you chat with it, use Opus 4.6 when you're running chron jobs that are pretty simple you can use like haiku and it can help you right size tasks for models.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's how I got mine set up. Actually mine goes because I just signed up for the tier one for Gemini. So it all the Cron jobs go through Gemini and then anything that needs a little more brains are used on it. And then if it really can't figure something out, it's it'll move up to Opus like on something. It just can't figure it out at all.

Speaker 3: I think people don't realize like how many different models we're going to have in terms of sizes. Like a lot of what we're going to do is going to be fed to like these like models with low parameters that are don't cost any money to to run to score right. Like I feel like people think we just have to have these gigantic models. For me, that doesn't even I don't know. I agree with that asteroid. And to be to be clear, I think like where I started and where I thought I would stay. It's definitely changed in three weeks. But where I thought I would stay is you can actually just get Chet GPT the $20 plus and you can use their.

Speaker 5: Oauth.

Speaker 3: And you can get most things done just with Oauth. You don't need anything more. You don't need to be buying tokens, you don't need to do anything else. And so I don't know, I think that's the cheap way for people to start off is find an old device that you can install it on, go chat with your favorite chat.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You don't need API tokens for ChatGPT.

Speaker 3: No, you can actually just set it up with Oauth. So there's 2 two ways to set it up. 1 is either with API tokens, which you're paying for right per use, so you got to.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Like can you do it with code? Because I think I had mine hooked up that way originally and then I think it just.

Speaker 3: They broke it. Yeah. They, they, they shut it off when they didn't get the developer as an employee. They basically shut it down that next day. So anybody who had it set up with Olaf, you can't use Anthropic, but you can use, you know, to an extent you can use ChatGPT and it actually, I mean, you could pretty much use it like all day and you won't, you know, they won't stop you, but if you get too far into it or it's doing too many heavy tasks, then they'll block you for like 3 or 4 days and you got to wait.

Speaker 4: Yeah, so that may be true. I originally used Oauth with the cheapest cloud plan and then it stopped working and I assumed they broke it for a while, but now it is working with the five times plan. I know it's against their terms of service, but I tried using an API key tokens and that was just too expensive.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's what I'm.

Speaker 3: Doing now it's ridiculous how expensive it is and it's it's so expensive for the little menial task to it's like, oh, there goes a dollar. Oh, there goes a dollar. So yeah, I would encourage people like if you want to try it out, do it on an old device or an older device or a cheaper device like a might. Like my kids are playing with it and they're using MacBook Airs from 2021 that have the M1 chip in them and they're just, you know, cheap old machines, but they're playing with it and they have it on Oauth on ChatGPT and it's fine for them for what they're using it for. And it's basically a $20.00 a month subscription. So when they referee soccer, they're able to pay for that.

₿itcoin ₿ull: How do you do with Claude James?

Speaker 3: You really can't. I mean the only way with that one right now is to use either have to pay for the $100 a month plan.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, I had the Max plan and I think I had to set up that way originally, but it just stopped working one day and then all of a sudden it told me to put the tokens and then I did. I was asking Asteroid how to get that set up. So ever since then I've been using it, but I think I had it originally on the plan.

Speaker 3: Yeah, they they did change some things and that is because it's against their terms of service to put agents on there like James was saying. So I think they're trying to build their own. And really the the whole reason is because they want people to subscribe to Co work for a couple 100 bucks a month, which has some of the similar features without having to go the claw bot route. So I think it's all in just like what you want to hook it up to.

Speaker 4: Yeah, they don't want you using any third party tools with the subscription.

Speaker 3: So they, they made it, it was like a couple weeks ago, right? They made it that you can't use Claude with Claudebot. You can only call the APIs of like Gemini and, and another one you, you can use the API, but I mean, it's super expensive the way it does things. It's like you ask it one question and all of a sudden there goes $0.80 worth of API tokens. So it's like, it's just not really worth it unless you know really what you're doing and how to fine tune it. And that's why I tell people like don't buy API tokens if you're starting out, just practice this with your $20.00 a month open AI, which I know asteroid you're against. They're evil people. But for 20 bucks to just play around and not have to know much, it's it's pretty nice. I'm curious if you guys think it's overkill to use Opus for what I'm doing. I just started this project. I'm just trying to build an agent to control various parameters of a piece of software on my computer and I'm designing it with Opus. But after asking it like 2 questions and having it like design like files for me and all sorts of stuff that's going into the design, it's like you've run out of like questions for the next three hours. Why don't you just put the $200 version? I never, I rarely ever. So that rarely ever happens on Opus because there was like, you can, you can just pay as you go if you want, go to the $200 version, I said, and then it won't happen. So it's 200 bucks a month. I mean, that's 10 times more than what I'm paying now. I mean, if you, yeah, but if you want a good product and you want it to be built right, you're going to spend the money. It's worth it. It's to be honest with you, it's really worth it. See. And that's, and that's why I came down to like based on how, you know, you kind of grow into this stuff. How I started using it. I'm like, hey, if I'm going to pay $200 a month or more, you know, do the math on that. Like I'm just going to buy a machine. So I bought an HP ZGX which was like 3600 bucks with tax where I'm at and sounds like a lot. But like if you're using it and you can actually like improve your businesses or business or do something more than just like have it like read your calendar and reschedule things. It's it's worth it. Yeah, I mean, I'm using, I'm trying to use it ultimately to like replace what would be hiring a person. So I mean, 2000 dollars, $2400 a year is still cheaper than hiring a person. And then I also, you know, can work or at the weird hours of the night that I like to work, but you don't have to keep it on Opus that, well, that's what I was going to say is like, do you think Opus is overkill for just like designing a script that's going to take speech to text? And then I don't, No, I don't. I think if you want it done correctly, right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Opus Well, well, you could. I've been using it both ways. You could. You could set up Son and you could set it up so if it fails three times, it asks Opus That's how I have it. So it's different ways you to.

Speaker 3: But is it gonna? But yeah, I guess that's what I don't understand about the difference between the models is like, is it gonna just fail? Like if I ask it to do something, if I saw it to do something, is it going to quote UN quote fail or say like, hey, I can't do what you're telling me to or is it going?

₿itcoin ₿ull: To it'll just have a hard time. It'll just have a hard time and it won't.

Speaker 3: Possible that it's going to do a worse job designing it. Yeah, exactly. It's gonna give me a sloppier version than what Opus would give me Yeah, that's the that's The thing is you're just getting you're getting a worse product. Like why? Yeah, The thing is, it's like I'm not asking it to like send.

₿itcoin ₿ull: E-mail how are you gonna know be my like balance capabilities it's.

Speaker 3: Like I actually need like a well written piece of software.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, but some things it could do, Sonny. It's it's a little bit, I feel like over it's.

Speaker 3: Not, I don't think as soon Who's designing a bunch of software with it. It's not even close, dude. I mean, it's like, yeah, I'm saying I'm not asking it to do like cutesy things like like send emails and it's like an admin. It's like I'm asking it. It's like a developer versus like a a guy who's been in there for like a year or two. That's what I would. Yeah. And that's essentially the question I'm asking is it is it gonna do sloppy or design? Like you gotta, you gotta use the tools like the for the right tool for the right job, right. So like Haiku is the one nobody uses but it's for simple tasks and then it's sonnet for reasoning and then it's Opus for coding. So like if you're using sonnet it'll do OK coding.

Speaker 2: What's that?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm building $100 version. Why are you so cheap? It's 100 bucks. It's nothing. Well, 'cause I just started using it, I'm not, I mean, I don't even know how the pricing structure works. Like I'm they he's trying.

Hector Lopez: To dip his toes in, that's all.

Speaker 3: I was just dipping my toes in and seeing what like, oh, how many prompts does this? How much energy does this use up? And then I was like, tried out the pay as you go thing and I can't find any documentation anywhere. Go get yourself, just do yourself a favor. Go get the $20 ChatGPT plus and connect it to that. Yeah, GPT is mad gay. Now if you want to build software, you need to use Opus. Like, well, then if you, if you don't, if you want to pay for it, then I mean, if you need the, the actual, if you're willing to pay for it, then go pay for it.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, because check this out. I heard it's like so easy. It's like, because I'm real excited about next football season, how many draft AI draft apps there's going to be where you could plug in your parameters for your league and all stuff like that. It's like when when I'm saying, oh, when I hear it, I think it was a guy fell and I by the name of Alex Finn. He's really just laid it on heavy and it's like, holy shit, is that one of the ones I got to pay 100 bucks for to design my app? It's like if I could just tell Claude or Sonnet or whatever the hell his name is today, which I think that's cool thing. That's like a, That's like a seer.

Speaker 3: So The thing is, thank you. I don't know what you're talking about, Pat. Oh, so Pat, just all you got to do is go to is when you when you run out of tokens, just click the 100.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Dollar One and.

Speaker 3: You'll get a ass load and you probably if you just keep if you keep using it for not a couple like a day straight, you'll probably hit that limit. You pay for the $200 one and I, I I think I hit the limit once, maybe never. I don't maybe I've never done a $200. Does it work like a dumb subscription where like if you don't like mid journey mid.

Hector Lopez: Journey gives you like 10 fucking regenerations or iterations of whatever you type.

Speaker 3: In I'm not done asking my question. Fuck face, why so hard on this fucking app?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Holy.

Speaker 4: Shit.

Hector Lopez: Why hello so?

Speaker 5: Hard.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Mean what happened? I missed it.

Speaker 3: I just thought like, I can't get a single fucking question as to like, Asteroid or Bob. You've been talking the last two or three fucking people on this. Shut the fuck up. This guy's kid.

Hector Lopez: There's like two or three.

Speaker 3: People on this stage that actually are qualified to answer my questions and not interrupt and talk about like fantasy football drafts, like, I don't care, like, but like, Oh my God.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Go for it.

Speaker 3: It's hard to just let a person speak.

₿itcoin ₿ull: All right, go for it, PG.

Speaker 3: No, I need to cool off.

Hector Lopez: What is happening now we're talking?

Speaker 3: About now to.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Be honest, I missed it. I was looking I.

Hector Lopez: Was getting bored until PG.

Speaker 4: Just ran off the.

Speaker 5: Thing. Here's the thing.

Speaker 3: About these faces, can I say this real quick? I we do have to do a better job because it's it's driven me crazy too of like people interrupting like with random shit. It's fun if you interrupt like just, yeah, like we're having a productive. Sorry, I just did it. I just did it and there's.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I was just gonna say that. I was just gonna say that.

Speaker 5: There's another thing.

Speaker 3: When we're just talking about something and it's really interesting, you get a random fucking guy. Come on, they're like a bit 110 or like dude, just kick him right away. Like I can't. It drives me. I cannot take it anywhere I get.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Freaked out, I try. I try to be nice sometimes, so I try not to.

Speaker 3: No more nice dude.

₿itcoin ₿ull: If you Jacob, Jacob's not as nice as me. Jacob boots him pretty quick. Jacob.

Speaker 5: Remember that guy?

Hector Lopez: Yes, I'll Boo to anybody. I don't care 100.

Speaker 3: $1,000,000 Apple stock that there was an interesting convo and I was like he just came in and started Harmo. He has $300 million Apple and that that was it. I was like, I don't even.

₿itcoin ₿ull: What was the I thought he was too harsh though on him. I feel like it was older guy I, I knew where they were coming with, you know, coming from. I don't.

Speaker 3: Understand why we can't just boot them right away Like why do we have to listen just to be nice yeah I, I well.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You got sometimes you got to be nice to older people. Sorry PJ, don't yell at me.

Speaker 3: No, you're good. I, I, I just can't stand when there's like these Freudian shifts in conversation where like there's like a 5 minute, 10 minute conversation happening and then someone like the word apples get said and then someone comes in and is like, I had an apple orchard once. And then like, you start talking about apple orchards and then no, nobody butts in to be like, hey, guy, like, you know, we were actually talking about like something completely different. Like, but then the whole room just starts talking about apple orchards. And then you're like, cool, I guess I'm just going to sit here. And it's like I just don't.

₿itcoin ₿ull: And then it goes from orchards to something else. I.

Speaker 3: Feel like we wait honestly, as time went on, I feel like we're too nice. Like if I'm almost they're just you get off topic and it's like a this fucking path. You're just gone because it's just like, I don't know, like.

Speaker 5: A lot of times they come.

Speaker 3: Up and they just start talking and I'm like, what? What does that have to do with anything?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I don't, I don't you know what it is. Everybody has a different things they want to talk about, right? We're in a Bitcoin tonight space in the last, I don't know, 10 minutes or maybe 20 minutes. We've been talking about Claudebot, Yeah, And you see a bunch of people leaving, but I'm just like, whatever. It's like whatever people want to do at this point, but.

Speaker 3: Here's the thing. It'll be an interesting conversational button, but then the weird thing is it'll have nothing to do with anything. Sometimes they just fucking ramble. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

₿itcoin ₿ull: The thing I don't like is people, I'll get up too much. Like sometimes people will be there for like 20 minutes telling the whole freaking story just like, holy shit. But I, you know, I still, I try not to be mean. I try to let them finish and push you in another direction somehow, but.

Speaker 5: Here's the thing.

Speaker 3: I know we want to be nice to that guy, but like I still don't even understand what the point of it whole like half the time they're like, let me finish and it's just like a random story that's nothing to do with anything. And I'm like, I don't understand the point of it. What was what was that wouldn't have to do with it? Like it's bizarre all.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Right, let's, let's, let's run, let's take it back to PG and see if we cooled off a little bit. You want to ask your question PG or no just.

Speaker 3: Forget I don't even know what we're talking about anymore. Just.

Hector Lopez: Asteroid are you going to Bitcoin? Are you going to Vegas? Asteroid, are you going to Vegas?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I.

Hector Lopez: Don't know, PG dropped. I don't know, I'm thinking about it.

Speaker 3: If you go, I'll go. What day is it?

Hector Lopez: It's in April, PG dropped. That's the first time I've heard PG go off.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Who we got mad at, Who did it to him?

Speaker 3: Was it?

Hector Lopez: Pat, that was me, that was me it was Pat he always there with Sorry.

₿itcoin ₿ull: About you invading.

Hector Lopez: Me to ruffle any feathers he he just got interrupted in the middle of a question all right here's a a grind my gears little thing from today earlier all right it was I think it was dumb Greek, but he started talking about hash. We spent 1/2 an hour on hash. If you've been listening to these spaces for two years and you don't know how a fucking hash works, that I can explain in 10 seconds and you could time me and we spent 1/2 an hour on it. A fucking hash. I mean, it's the simplest thing you could ever. So here you want to say hash in 10 seconds. The hash is an algorithm you can put any digital file through. It'll produce a short string of characters that if you change 1 character in that file, that string of.

Speaker 3: Characters would be completely different.

Hector Lopez: That was only 5 seconds.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That was that was actually good. That was actually really good and.

Hector Lopez: So then you can compare any file and tell if one character's been changed. Simple. That's what it is. And so if you have the same hash algorithm, you run your file through it and you'll know if it's been tampered with, period. We can talk about it. We said half hour on that. Now there is a great book, I think Bitcoin by Dan Clark goes through all those basics and a very nice level. If you're going to spend all this time on these spaces, take 1520 minutes, you know, whatever that book might take you a few hours to read, but it does a very nice job on it. But so that I think sometimes we cater to it too much. It's like, dude, pick up your game. You've been listening to these for years and you don't know what a hash is.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, to be fair, he's fair. He's fairly new to Bitcoin, to be fair. But yeah, I agree, people should, you know, put some effort into it.

Hector Lopez: Who's now?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Greek he hasn't been here for.

Hector Lopez: Too long Greek. Oh yeah, Greek. Greek. Just ask questions.

Speaker 5: Oh. Greek asked the.

Hector Lopez: Fucking questions. Greek was asking what is shot 256 means? Which like at the end of the day I was like holy shit I didn't know Topher had a whole lecture about it.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's the topher.

Hector Lopez: Topher yeah, I know, I know. But but yeah, like Greek asked a question. What is Tomer? Tomer. Tomer OK. Tomer Sorry. Tomer, yes.

Speaker 4: Another good suggestion is if if you have like a local meet up, that's a great place to shoot the.

Hector Lopez: Shit.

₿itcoin ₿ull: And.

Speaker 4: Answer these questions.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I definitely got to do one of these Bitcoin meet ups. I haven't been to 1 yet.

Hector Lopez: I don't want to. You want to meet up with people? What?

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, the big the like the conferences and stuff. I want to go. I heard big block boom. I can't even pronounce it. I heard that's pretty cool and I want to go to the.

Speaker 3: That's the greatest 1 disrupt.

₿itcoin ₿ull: It is right? That's what I heard, so that's why I want to go.

Speaker 2: It's so.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Good. I think Topher's going to go. I'll.

Speaker 5: I'll tell.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You, Topher, and I want to go to mine. I want to go to mine and disrupt because I like obviously Bitcoin mining.

Speaker 3: No, the reason bit block boom is so good is because it's a little more quaint, right? Like it's not.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Like more hanging out and laid back or it's more like party for sure, yeah.

Speaker 3: We're actually. We're actually interviewing Gary, the the guy who started it tomorrow on Bitcoin Veterans at 10:00 AM Eastern, if anybody's awake that early. So if you want, yeah, Topher's going to come. And he's already, he's already been picked to win the free GA pass that Gary's giving out on the show. So don't show up. No, I'm just kidding. But Gary is giving out a free general admission tomorrow to someone, so if you're interested in coming to that one, it's it should be fun.

₿itcoin ₿ull: How does you got a well, I guess I can ask tomorrow instead ask you now, but I'm just curious how is is more than one day? Like what's the setup? Is it just everybody hanging out? Is it like structured where they have certain things certain times?

Speaker 3: Man, we've had people flying into this from like all over the world and just do Lobbycon. So they don't even go to the conference, they just hang out in the lobby and pick golf people as they come by. But I know the conference is good. It's like 2 days and lots of good stuff. At the end there's a casino night, which is all just for fun. It's it's in Dallas. So this year, it's in Fort Worth.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, Fort Worth, TX.

Hector Lopez: Oh that's sweet, there's casinos out there.

Speaker 3: So it's a he, he, you know, it's like a fake casino night. So everybody gets a certain amount of chips with and then you just play and then you get prizes at the end. Like they draw, you know, you basically get a bunch of tickets for your winnings and then they put them all in a bucket and they have tons and tons of prizes like hardware wallets, passes to other conferences, passes the next year's conference, all kinds of, I mean, it's he gives out like, I don't know, I think it's like $20,000 worth of stuff, which is pretty cool.

Hector Lopez: Holy shit that's sick.

₿itcoin ₿ull: How many years does big ball? I can't ever pronounce it.

Speaker 3: It's the oldest.

₿itcoin ₿ull: One I think this is.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this is the 10th or 11th, so pretty big deal. It's cool. Like a lot of a lot of the people who like are authors and you know, OG Bitcoiners that you know from all the podcasts and interviews actually show up to this one and you can actually have a conversation with them, which is pretty cool.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, if that I'm going to have to go to one of these, but last minute because usually when it gets warmer, my schedule's.

Speaker 5: Crazy. Never been to 1 ball. Never.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Been to no, no, that's why I got to try to make definitely make one this year, but I was trying to decide which one to try to push for and.

Speaker 5: Interesting.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm kind of thinking the big block boom or mining disrupt or or what's the other one? The other conference that not the one in in What the fuck is it the the main conference coming up? But Prague they said I heard. I heard Prague was good.

Speaker 5: Right. So the main ones in the US is the BTC conference in Vegas.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, so I have actually have a ticket to that one. But if I do go to be like last minute, I don't know, I, you know, cuz I gotta, I'm going to Budapest in, I think it's July and I think that's at the end of the July, right? Or, or is that the beginning? It's somewhere close to my trip. So I got to see how I work it out if I can.

Speaker 4: I'm in the same place I want to travel with my wife to Hawaii and so I had just accepted not going to the conference but I have a free ticket. But like as Bitcoin's flipping bullish now I'm getting FOMO so I don't know.

Speaker 3: You're going to Hawaii over. That's the exact time the conference is.

Speaker 4: Around then in April, yeah.

Hector Lopez: Dump the wife, go to the conference.

Speaker 4: I was there last year and the only reason, like David Bailey announced free tickets, and so I just signed up for that. So that's why I have a ticket.

Hector Lopez: Oh, you just have 1 ticket? Yeah, one single ticket. Oh, OK.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, they were. They were giving them out. I forget a while ago. That's how I got mine. I didn't even plan on going. They just said, oh, I forget what it was. And I just, I said, you know what, let me take it. And they gave me a free ticket. I don't remember a while ago.

Hector Lopez: Aren't they still just giving out tickets?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm not sure.

Hector Lopez: David Bailey, like, scared people away, yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I, you know, I was in, I was in Nashville when they had the other Bitcoin conference and when Trump showed up there, I went down there just to with friends and stuff, but I didn't have nothing to go in the conference. I was just like out and about. Yeah, pretty much.

Hector Lopez: Outgating you didn't get you didn't get to hear the Have fun playing with your bitcoins.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, I should have, I should have went to there was like a after party thingy. I forget what it was called, but I, I didn't, I don't know the from what I heard, the conference wasn't like anything special, anything people.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I heard the same.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I definitely, I definitely need to do 1, which?

Speaker 5: Which conference were you guys talking about?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I was in Nashville during the Bitcoin conference there.

Speaker 5: Oh yeah, that's what I went to that one.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Oh, you did? Yeah, Yeah, I didn't. I didn't go in the conference. I was like up and down the block and it was like there was another meet up afterwards and I I should have went to that one but I didn't. I was with friends.

Speaker 5: It was because I met up with a different bunch of different groups and stay in a place where there's a lot of people that I knew. It was interesting. It was it was one of the one of the bigger ones and it was very nice. It was very nice. I didn't go to any sort of like sit down, not watching his speech though, just like I was just having fun checking things out and meeting people going going to like breakfast, some really nice breakfast there. Actually. There was some really good places. Yeah. I was great downtown area, big Convention Center. And it was, it was cool. I was something different because I've never been in Nashville. And it was certainly one of those experiences I would always remember. So yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I was staying right next to the conference and they had helicopters and stuff flying over because of Trump.

Speaker 5: But The thing is, I'm used to the sort of like the city style West side, like the Pacific Bitcoin and the Vegas unconfiscatable conference cause of poker. And you know, 'cause I'm always, I love playing poker and it's just like, you know, the glitz and sort of like the style. It's different, right? And I suppose it's kind of like, you know, has its own style, it has its own vibe. Nothing wrong with that. Well, actually, I played poker in Nashville as well. Actually, I was playing with Joe Calls, sorry, and some other people, Thomas and some other people and you know.

Hector Lopez: Who won?

Speaker 5: So it was a cash game. So, you know, there's not like, hey, a final winner, but if you won, if you made money at the end of the, the, the, the hour or, or at the end of the game or two hours, I think 2-3 hours, we stayed there. Then you, you win. So I'm I won. I wasn't and I I lost kind.

Hector Lopez: Of oh, you won.

Speaker 5: No, I mean multiple won where got money won wins, right. But what do you call it? I lost a lot in the beginning and there was this really bad luck, unfortunately. And you know, I went to the other table and then I won. So I ended up winning throughout, you know, throughout the night. That's.

Hector Lopez: About to pop up here. They verify it.

Speaker 5: Yeah, no joking be like because he has switched tables with me because like his he was like, no, I didn't give like a chance at the table with him because he switched to the other side because he was not doing bad at his table. He was not doing good actually on his table. He switched over.

Hector Lopez: You're saying Joe didn't play good?

Speaker 5: On his first, his original table, yeah, that's why he switched to the other table. And so I switched. It was a me him kind of switched tables. But the the bigger tournament that I play was at Unconfiscatable Conference at Vegas. And that one was really interesting because it was literally my first sort of pretty big tournament. It was like 50 people who played. There was a mix of big corners and there were some professional supposedly a few, and it was a good mix of people on that one. You know, I got to the final table, I was top 4, right? We're at the top four final table. And it was, I got unlucky, but you know, whatever, this is part of the game. I got unlucky because what happened was I had like literally really good cards. And if I beat that one guy at that one hand, it would have been like top three players, right? And then more than likely because I would have Chipley, I could probably come come in first. But I got no, I got kicked out and but it's fine. It's fine. I was very happy with the results. Interesting sound all.

Speaker 3: Right, well, let's get back to fantasy.

Speaker 5: Football. You have to watch the football.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Is that a time limit?

Hector Lopez: Yeah, no. So I think it would be really cool. Like these draft agents that are going to be coming up on the next fantasy football season. Yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: TuneIn for.

Speaker 4: That.

Speaker 3: What the hell is the draft agent? What are you talking?

Hector Lopez: About did you ask what a draft agent was? Asteroid? What was it time to end of space? I think it's it's time. I think it's.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Over.

Hector Lopez: I think I think we run out of top topics.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, where's that David guy? David R.

Hector Lopez: He's in the listener, he's in the audience.

₿itcoin ₿ull: He was wrong about clean and dirty Bitcoin. There's no such thing. Tell him.

Hector Lopez: I'm up, David, it's time for a There's no.

Speaker 3: Such thing as dirty Bitcoin there's.

Hector Lopez: No, I think he means like virgin Bitcoin. Like like just mined and then never sent, only just held.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Doesn't matter, it's still a UTXO, it's still unspent transaction output. All right, so send it to you. I'm.

Hector Lopez: I'm doing the the intradasting GIF if you guys are familiar.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Dude when I spend when you send a UTXO.

Hector Lopez: Bitcoin it depends on your jurisdiction try and buy Bitcoin from El Salvador that was involved in drug running through coin. You know, try and buy that or try and spend that from in try and put that into Coinbase and you can go to jail trap in everybody. Of course there's dirty Bitcoin. That's why you.

Speaker 5: Know that.

Hector Lopez: One Bitcoin is 1 Bitcoin is stupid but but because there are depending on where you are in the world in the.

₿itcoin ₿ull: US all this.

Hector Lopez: Winter not the same.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hold on, when I send a UTXO I burned the old one and I create a new one, do you understand that?

Hector Lopez: Of course, but this is traceable on chain unless you're going to run it through lightning. We've had this conversation. Joe Call Saris participated in it. What do you do? Grant Cardone was wondering, you know, or Gary, what do I do? I got given like 10 Bitcoin from a Russian. I'm not what do I do with that? I don't know what to do with that. I don't want my grandkids to go to jail because I gave.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Him, you know, a dream Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: They they that that Bitcoin is traceable on chain. That's the whole point of the concern about who's the lack of privacy. So they'll say that Bitcoin was involved in narcotics trafficking, OK.

₿itcoin ₿ull: When somebody gives.

Speaker 5: You cash.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Do you know that dollar bill was held by Escobar before you?

Hector Lopez: The same thing. That's why you have money laundering laws. That's why banks just can't take in millions of dollars without knowing their customer. K, you know KYC, that's the whole point. Same thing. So they're $1.00 doesn't?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Rely on a chain analysis to tell you what's true and what's not true.

Hector Lopez: They can tie that Bitcoin to illicit activity.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: Was used in narcotics. You're saying they can't do that?

₿itcoin ₿ull: How?

Hector Lopez: Through on chain forensics, that's what. This is what Coinbase does.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's what they do. They're.

Hector Lopez: Paying by the rules. They're monitoring who's who's got what. If you're going to go on Coinbase, now you have to go through KYC, you have to be identified. They know who you are, they establish your wallet. They're not going to take somebody anonymously on the coin base and they're not going to take anonymous Bitcoin. They have whole systems derived for analysis, analyzing whether that Bitcoin is clean or not, how far away it is from some potentially illicit activity, and you.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Know who's the judge? So who's the judge? Well, who decides that of the?

Hector Lopez: Government of the country in which you're operating. So that's why if you're in the US, they're definitely dirty Bitcoin, I'm sure probably for every.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So when I go and and pay you with lightning, how do I know? Do you know that my lightning payment is dirty or clean?

Hector Lopez: Well, light lightning adds some anonymity to it, but what call? Sorry, was telling us the other day is that big Coinbase won't touch Bitcoin has been on lightning now.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You're not you're.

Hector Lopez: Not going to be able to bring it back because they have. People have gone to prison for this right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: But the whole thing, the facts are don't change because to start the lightning channel you have to send an Unchained payment first.

Hector Lopez: This was the whole samurai wallet.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Maybe that's like a dirty Bitcoin right there. Or maybe.

Hector Lopez: What was Samurai? What was?

Speaker 5: Samurai wallet about.

Hector Lopez: What was Samurai Wallet about? Do you know that case? Are you familiar with what happened there? They did they go to jail? Anyone know what the Rep if that case concluded their what they were going to jail for or what they're charged with is because they were promoting washing Bitcoin through lightning network. And so hey, look, take give us your Bitcoin and this is what you take it. Take your.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Bitcoin. You cannot do that. You don't wash Bitcoin, do you know what? Because the the samurai you wash.

Hector Lopez: Around the Lightning Network, it comes out much more.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Difficult to on KYC exchange. How? How can you get rid of that? You can't. So no washing can get rid of.

Hector Lopez: It if you bought well, what you wouldn't want to do is take Bitcoin that you got through KYC exchange from Coinbase, which is clean and then put that through Lightning Network to you know, anonymitize it or whatever you would want to do that if you had Bitcoin you weren't sure about here was the question for Joe look, let's say you're that person you got ten Russian bitcoins. You don't know their history what can you do and he said, well, one thing you can do is just try and put them in Coinbase and see if they get through that's one way to do it. What about just throw them out on the Lightning Network, wash them around and then do it and then put it in because you've already watched it and you know, because, well, they may not even take it. But then you're also maybe criminally reliable for trying to wash it. You could claim you didn't know you know any better, but that might itself be a criminal act trying to hide the.

Speaker 5: But.

₿itcoin ₿ull: How do they know it's came from Russian but not American? Because some other.

Speaker 5: One is there forever.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Who is the judge I'm asking.

Hector Lopez: Who is the judge the the FBI? The CIA? Is the judge the US right? Who is Coinbase? What? What regulators are they buckling underneath? That was their whole thing you had. Yeah, but David, I got a question. How do we know that Coinbase's Bitcoin are clean, that they sell? Maybe Coinbase sells fucking Silk Road coins. There's a Coinbase is laundering Bitcoin. This is a whole, whole thing right there. So it's a list.

Speaker 4: Silk Road here a Nofac list.

Hector Lopez: So they are they are regulated and they're cooperating. That's that's the idea. So they're considered safe. Now here here was the question. Here was the question by Usus government and law enforcement. It'd be, I guess the FBI. But so here was a question is like somebody like I run a freaking pizza shop, somebody gives me Bitcoin, how do I know it's not dirty Bitcoin? Like, OK, you wouldn't. And I don't think, I mean, it's got to be limits to that law, right? Because you could not possibly know. But if you're talking about a substantial amount of Bitcoin that you've gotten, you know, like one or more Bitcoin that is dirty Bitcoin, you have to be aware of that issue. You have to know where that Bitcoin came from. Sure, if you you mined it, that'd be fine. But if you got Bitcoin that has potentially got a sordid past, there is risk involved in that for you so.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hold on, David, if let's say North Korea mined the block, that's three bitcoins right there. So is that dirty UTXO?

Hector Lopez: If it was mine.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Because they mined it.

Hector Lopez: I don't think so, but.

₿itcoin ₿ull: What what he suggested is that something was done illegally with it. That's what he suggested.

Hector Lopez: No or he's yeah, but that's a good question is like if it's a, you know, an enemy country minded, does that make it illegal? Bitcoin from the US? That's a good question.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Then others can label and do it like that too like I I don't so British can say you Americans are also illegal like or any country could just blame each other like how is that going to work?

Hector Lopez: Well, it happens all the time. Look what they did with the Russian money they confiscated, right? Same thing, you know? And then that's illegal. We're confiscating those funds, you know, that's what governments do. So it does.

Speaker 5: Depend on your jurisdiction. That's the.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Whole point. It's permissionless and censorship resistant, isn't it? So how?

Hector Lopez: Well.

₿itcoin ₿ull: How are they going to control?

Hector Lopez: How did the That's a different question. How do they confiscate your Bitcoin? Well, they did with the Silk Roads, didn't they? But that's a different question. How do they consider?

₿itcoin ₿ull: That it was one dude that was in control. It was the guy in the exchange that was his node.

Hector Lopez: Well, and they caught him with his laptop open and we got all of his his coins in his There's still they got all those keys. How do they that's?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Why the guy wanted to roll back the chain like recently. Didn't you know that news? It's still sits right on.

Speaker 5: On chain.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, theoretically they can put you in jail unless you want to cough up your your keys if they want to, right?

Speaker 2: But so how?

Speaker 5: They sell those the.

Hector Lopez: Bitcoin is one question. How they consider it illegal, That's another question.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, say that amount of Mount G Ox coins are sitting there, so they're going to sell it to someone. So whoever buys it, is that Bitcoin dirty?

Hector Lopez: No, because if the government.

Speaker 3: Is going to.

Hector Lopez: Sell it to you then It's clean, it's been cleaned.

Speaker 2: That's been why.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Because judge said so.

Speaker 4: Right.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So you're going to bow down to a government?

Hector Lopez: If you're going to live and spend money and turn that into Fiat and.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Back cover was not built for that then.

Hector Lopez: If you're not ever going to turn.

Speaker 5: It into.

Hector Lopez: Fiat, you may still be in trouble if you're trying to spend.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That then why do we need Bitcoin? What's the purpose if we, if you're going to bow down to a government, what's, what's the what's the purpose of Bitcoin?

Hector Lopez: Well, everything is is a little bit relative here, isn't it? Like, sure, I want to hold my Bitcoin in self custody and I do because I you know, you'd have to pry my thing out of me even if you could, if it's not in multi sig or whatever else, right, I can tell you I had a boating accident or whatever. Sure, you can do that, but it's a little bit of a fantasy because if they want to illegalize Bitcoin, what are you going to do with your Bitcoin and your gold storage? Who you going to spend it with? Who you going to interact with? So it's a little bit of a fantasy.

₿itcoin ₿ull: But somebody who will accept it, As simple as that.

Hector Lopez: Some other criminal then right, because if it's illegal then anyone who uses a criminal so but anyway.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I don't want to go there. The point is there are clean and.

Hector Lopez: There are dirty Bitcoin for sure.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, there is none and.

Speaker 5: Cleaner.

₿itcoin ₿ull: There's no such thing, dude.

Hector Lopez: All right. Are you in the US?

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, I'm in Armenia.

Hector Lopez: So maybe in Armenia there aren't, but I bet even there there are. But in the US, there definitely aren't.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You can't just label one and the other. It doesn't exist, it's just.

Hector Lopez: Like it's just like dollars and there are dollars that are dirty.

₿itcoin ₿ull: This is more traceable.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, in some ways it's worse. Gold is a lot harder, although they would say, I mean, I guess you can get, you know, illegal gold. Where was that gold from? If that was involved in illegal, then those are illegal funds you've received, you know, even gold. But that is very difficult to trace, right. So probably, definitely less so than Bitcoin is. But anyway, Bitcoin's very traceable. That's one of the complaints that so we talked about with the, you know, business with Chomoth earlier is the lack of privacy and the traceability of it. But I don't think that's necessarily it's a kind of a feature, not a bug, maybe should be traceable. So anyway, I don't have to worry about it too much if you're just a normal person. But if you get a big load of Bitcoin from a questionable source, you might want to think twice about exactly how you deal with that consultant attorney. They have waste. You can pay a company to screen that Bitcoin for you. They run it through, you know, an algorithm that says gives you like a percentage of kind of how clean it is. They do that. That's that's a business.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So. So you you trust them? Yeah, I.

Hector Lopez: Mean these are well known, you know algorithms and then they say OK, no that's clean that's good you're good to go then you.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Give us a place and they'll say.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, that's fine because they're going to do the same thing. They run it through the same algorithms. They do a on chain analysis and see if it's, you know, comes up against any flagged wallets that have been flagged by governments as being associated with illegal activity.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So if on chain is transparent, why do I need an on chain analysis if I can just look at it?

Hector Lopez: You know how to you know how to survey the entire chain and find out which wallets have been.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Flagged pain analysis is a gimmick as.

Hector Lopez: Being associated with the illegal activity, you can do that.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Who is the judge though? Like like.

Hector Lopez: The US government that's flagged certain wallets as being associated with the illegal activity. If you touch one of those wallets, you take Bitcoin, it's from one of those wallets, then that's dirty Bitcoin. And if it's eight times removed and it isn't very much, they probably look the other way. If it's a big load of it that's, you know, directly from one of those wallets, you've got a problem.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, O'Hare, you want to jump up, get a little change of place here if you're interested. But yeah, I don't know. Jacob, what are you thinking? It's it's been a crazy day, to be honest with you. So Bitcoin bull mining, right? Yeah. So I'm gonna label your UTX so dirty when once you mined it. That's fine. Can't I do it? But I like dirty UTX OS. You're missing. You're missing his point. You're missing his point. You're missing his point. It's like he's what he's basically trying to say if you if if something you know, for instance, cash, right? Like he used a if you paid somebody. Well, I don't know, that's not a good way to explain it either. But basically, if it was used in a legal way, they could trace it back to being used in a legal way. And then, you know, you have to face consequences and say where you got that from. It's like a gun. You, you know, you buy a gun from a store or you buy it for somebody on the street. If the gun, you know, has killed people and his body's on it, you got to answer where you got it from. It's not a good. It's not. You can't just go sell that gun to anybody, right? If you have a legal gun, think of it that way. That's pretty, I guess that's the best way I could think of it. That's why you saying your label is dirty. It's not, you know, it's not, it's not something that you didn't buy from the corner rifle store, you know, but who knows about that transaction though. It's all the transactions unchanged. Just like the the guns have serial numbers. And if you have to answer to the police where you got it from, you bought it from that shop, it's traceable back to the shop. You have paperwork saying you bought the gun from that shop. If you bought the gun from the street, you don't have nothing. No paperwork saying where it came from. You got to answer to them. You got caught with that gun. You got to tell the police where you got it from. Who you're going to say what shop? That ain't a shop. You got it from a random person from Russia or on the street, or that's what he's trying to say. That makes more sense that way. Well, I feel like that made a little more sense to you. You got you got to account for it. You basically got to account for it. If that if that you buy a gun off a street and murder people and you get caught with the gun and they say, how the hell you get this gun where you bought it from? You got to you got to have you got to be traceable right at serial numbers. And you can't just say you got it from a a random guy in the street. You got to, you know all they know you could have been the one that had the well, I did the murders with the gun, right? I mean, that's everybody does that. What are we talking about? I don't know. I don't know how to better way to explain it. I try to get somebody up here to I think just changed the subject. I think we should just tape this about the subject.

Hector Lopez: Hey O'Hare is on this stage. Hey O'Hare, I got a question for you. Change change this topic.

Speaker 4: I was going to say, I was just listening to you guys in the background. I hop in and you're talking about guns now.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I don't. I don't know what happened there. Hey, I don't know if you were on the space probably a week ago where Joe floated the idea of us having a March Madness debate on Twitter and I was looking for some participants. Do you think you'd be willing to participate?

Speaker 4: A March Madness debate about what?

Hector Lopez: Just debate like with another, like somebody on Twitter, like I'm coming up with names of lists and.

Speaker 4: You mean like a tournament?

Hector Lopez: Yeah, kind of like a tournament, Yeah, just like how the bracket is like the March Madness bracket.

Speaker 4: I see. And and what is it like? You're gonna have a bunch of people debating going down to like a final 2.

Hector Lopez: Yep, exactly.

Speaker 4: And what's the what's the topic of debate?

Hector Lopez: Well, the the way we would do matchups is I'll be one would idea would be Joe versus Dark because they tend to go at it with each other all the time. So it could be anything like whatever you guys disagree on, but I'm not really sure who I would match you up against to be honest.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, he goes in pretty hard with Joe. Yeah, he goes in pretty hard and they keep it. But Joe, they keep it. Joe in there. Nice. They're.

Hector Lopez: They're pretty civil though, like.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's what I that's what I mean. But that's, you know, it's not bad. That's good too.

Hector Lopez: I don't know, She's floating the idea right now.

Speaker 4: Me and David Levinson.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I feel like anybody and David Levinson.

Hector Lopez: It's funny you bring him up. He's on the list, but I don't know. Yeah, he is on the list.

Speaker 4: That's fine.

₿itcoin ₿ull: What?

Hector Lopez: About you and Mike Alfred, would you? Maybe that one, yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Mike, Alfred and What's the Slacker?

Hector Lopez: Oh, Mike, so.

Speaker 4: So, so what's and who's like, how do you know who? How do you, how do you come up with a winner? I mean, with March Madness, you know each.

Hector Lopez: Team Oh, we would have a we would have the listeners vote at the.

Speaker 4: End of the popularity contest, you know what I mean?

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I know. But that's that's kind of how it always is there.

Speaker 4: Are some people that have a large followings of the liquors and even if they lose a debate, yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean it's.

Speaker 4: Just very subjective, you know what I mean?

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I hear O'Hare you getting in on this Bitcoin run we're about to have. It's going to ratchet back up to the.

Speaker 5: Power.

Hector Lopez: You don't want to miss out on this trade, dude. You don't want to miss out.

Speaker 4: We've made a nice, nice move here in the last 24 hours. You know, it's, it's the beginning of March. We're coming out of a pretty bad month. February was just a lousy month. You know, it didn't go anywhere. Everybody was kind of, you know thinking that we were going to get a, a move up in February and it just didn't do anything, you know, just traded sideways to down and then here we are in March and I think this is a lot to do with just risk assets in general have have had a little bit here.

Hector Lopez: So tell me you're going to buy or have bought some Bitcoin, because we can't rest until you do.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Oh, I I like.

Hector Lopez: How he said we, He said he did start the the statement with the we.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm sure he played around with it a little bit.

Hector Lopez: O'Hare is a bitcoiner at heart. I know he.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Wants to he wants to be at the corner like I feel like he he has it in him. He just don't have enough. He.

Hector Lopez: Rude, missing that point of trade, of his career, his life, and it's not too late to get back in before another 10X.

Speaker 4: Another 10X would put us at what, 700,000?

Hector Lopez: Yeah.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Easy. It's very possible. I don't know how when, but it's very possible.

Hector Lopez: The only question is what allocation, but you should have some.

Speaker 4: Well, if we're if we're convinced that it's going to 10X to 700, then the only reasonable allocation is 100%.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hence the reason why a lot of people do go all in there, right?

Speaker 4: But as everything in life, nothing's a certainty, so you can't go 100%.

Hector Lopez: Agree with that.

Speaker 5: Well.

Hector Lopez: But at least 10, At least 20.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I mean, no, just something. Just get in something.

Speaker 4: Remember in November of last year, just five months ago, six months ago, everybody was bowled up thinking it's going to one 5200 or 250, you know so. And if you would have gone all in, you would have lost half your money.

Hector Lopez: No, if you sold. Not unless you sold it.

Speaker 4: Well, that's right, you don't you? You're not a loser till you sell.

Hector Lopez: That's right. So if you had done that and then it's going to go to 700, you didn't really well.

Speaker 4: By the way, I have to say the same hold if if we are using that as an analogy and we agree, then the same holds true for the upside, right? You don't actually make money till you sell.

Hector Lopez: That's true.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Absolutely.

Hector Lopez: And you can do round trip too. So it depends on where you think this is going. But if it's at least two a million, you probably don't sell before that, Then you're going to be telling yourself what's going to 10, you know? But what you do is you trim along the way.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I think a lot of people, I think the average cost for Bitcoin for most people is, you know, around just a little bit less than here. So I think most people have a slight gain right now at whatever, whatever it is, 7172 thousand right now, right. But you're right. I mean, a lot of people, you know, they round tripped it, they went up and, you know, and then came back down. And so that's, that's, that's the hard part about something like this.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, it was a painful drop, but in the bigger picture, it's noise. Really, it's noise. You have to see that and you have to have a conviction and see the thesis and see how sound it is that this is only going up in the longer picture, in the bigger picture.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. We have as value guys, we have, we have to deal with this, you know, not a lot, but not, you know, but, but I would, I would say frequently but, but you know, sometimes not infrequently, I guess whatever the, whatever the word would be. But you know, we have stocks that have reported earnings this quarter, for instance. We're having a great year again, but we have some stocks that are lousy. We have a, a stock that, you know, company that reported this week, it's down double digits on the report. Revenue was, you know, revenue was a slight miss, earnings were a slight miss. They had some issues with operations and they're taking some write downs and the stock's down like 22%. I'm buying a big block tomorrow morning. So The thing is, when you're an investor, you know that that kind of happens. You know, you just if you if you have the cojones, you know, and you have a. You know, let's put it this way, if you, if you like the stock 22% higher, then you should love it at 22% lower. Unless there's something meaningful that happened. And based on, you know, the earnings call that I was on and, and the reporting, there's nothing meaningful. I mean, it was just standard operating procedure. You know, this is this is kind of what happens and that this particular company is operating in an environment where, you know, people are just not that price sensitive at the moment. Yeah. And so, you know, they will be eventually. They aren't right now. And so like I say, you know, we have stock, you know, we have situations sometimes where things go on sale bigly as it were. And when they do, you know, you got to be able to go in and and pick up, pick up shares at a much lower cost. So that's what we're doing tomorrow. We have a block put together and I'm going to be buying it first thing in the morning.

Hector Lopez: That's why you don't want to miss this Bitcoin at near 60, because you're going to look back five years from now.

Speaker 4: I'm going to look back and go fuck I could have bought it at 60. Now it's.

Hector Lopez: 20 could have bought it at 60. You're going to have, let's the face the facts that we're going to have an army of financial advisors coming out from all these institutions and advising their clients about this new asset class which they've been through courses about now and they're all adopting it. That we recommend a 2 to 4% allocation to this. You know what a difference that's going to make in price and the total, you know, market cap of Bitcoin, that's going to be huge. Just that 2 to 4% from all those people, that's just guaranteed going to happen.

Speaker 4: Well, I, I agree with you, David. I think there's something to be sent for that. There's like 700,000 financial advisors in this country overseeing, you know, 10s of trillions of dollars of client money. Most of that money's tied up in equities and fixed income. Some of it's tied up in commodities and alternatives like, you know, Ctas, commodity trading advisors and hedge funds and private equity and venture capital. But the, you know, maybe there's a, you know, maybe some of that will rotate into crypto. It has a little bit, but, you know, not the problem with crypto is, you know, I think it's extremely volatile #1 #2 it's hard to put a, you know, it's, it's hard to put a fundamental valuation on it because there's no way to do that. So it really becomes an exercise in explaining to somebody that it's a, you know, it's a diversifier like the like you put it. And I agree, I think it is a diversifier. The question is, you know, how much do you own and, and you know, how do you, do you own it forever or do you trade in and out of it? Do you use it as a, as a tool? Example would be like like options, for example, like a put spread. It doesn't last forever, right? If I'm nervous about the stock market and I'm indexed to the S&P 500 and I don't want to sell all my stocks or I don't want to sell a big chunk of my stocks because of maybe long term or short term capital gains implications. So what I'll do is I'll buy, you know, a put spread for a period of time. It's like buying term insurance.

Hector Lopez: Well, you.

Speaker 4: Can buy whole life or you can buy term. If you buy term, say a 10 year term policy that covers you for, you know, a period of time that you specified for whatever reason. Same thing with options. You know, portfolio insurance is the same way you buy, you know, you buy a specific data point and, and obviously it would be shorter term. So when you're using options might be like a maybe like a 90 day, maybe maybe like 90 to, to, you know, 90 to 180 days, something like that where you know, maybe the next quarter or two are going to be a little iffy, You're a little worried. So you buy some, you buy put spread, that's portfolio insurance. Now you can rest easy if the market does turn, you know, for the worst, that puts spread will make money. And so instead of being down say 20%, you might only be down 5 or you may actually make some money, you know. But the question is like with Bitcoin like or with crypto, what do you use it that way? So you're in and out a trading vehicle or do you use it as a set and forget, you know, kind of more of a strategic allocation as opposed to a tactical allocation?

Hector Lopez: Probably more of that you don't want to play it short term, but you, you follow the acid capitalist guy. He was a Henry his post the other day. He's going to sell his house. Yeah, he wants to sell his house to buy, you know, $10 million of Bitcoin right now because.

Speaker 4: He says he's doing what Gary's doing, Cardone.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, this guy's, this is going to a million.

Speaker 4: Everybody's selling.

Hector Lopez: A few years, yeah. And after that it's not interesting anymore. Well, that's debatable because what he's saying is after that, the volatility will be dropped, the yields will go down, you know, once it gets to 1,000,000, but it may be more like once it gets to 10 million, that's going to happen. So it's a slow taper. But so you pick your target at what you think, you know, when you want to get off or sell most of it or sell part of it, and you do that. But here's another one is what what sailors doing with stretch or yeah, stretch? And that's just a funnel for Fiat into Bitcoin, dude, with 11 percent or greater return. And then it's just buying Bitcoin. That's just going to be a Fiat funnel into Bitcoin.

Speaker 4: I was listening to a space earlier on my way home. They were talking about Sailor and and and some of the different products stretch, I think, and that's that was one of them. I was just so.

Speaker 3: Here am I hearing you're selling your house for the corn? Is that what's happening now?

Speaker 4: Well no, I think you should sell your well maybe the house goes, Maybe the house is first and then the kidneys. I'm not not sure. Maybe somebody needs to DM sailor and ask him which comes first, the kidney or the house. I would say the house goes 1st and then then the kidney, but we'd have to get a got to get sailors take on that.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Instead of having your clients go to Bitcoin, what about STRC for the, for the, you know, for the interests?

Speaker 4: Where does he get the money to pay the interest you guys know?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I mean it on your end, it doesn't matter, right? It's always.

Speaker 3: Fucking.

Speaker 4: Them.

Speaker 3: Well, you do. That's where it comes from.

Hector Lopez: Here's here's two things Joe said about STRT the other day that I sort of that issue with, you know, you're listening. You can't get up to he said, well, you know, I think I'll bet you that if you put money on STRC, there's this big debate or you, you know, invest in Bitcoin and you wait five years, you would have done better if you just put it into Bitcoin. Well, like no shit, Sherlock, Cuz if that's not true, the whole fucking thing is not gonna work right? Because the whole point of STRC is that it's gonna depend on the kegger.

Speaker 4: Of well, hold on a second, David using that David using that logic, hold on a second using that logic. And I agree with you. Why even have STRC then?

Hector Lopez: Because some people don't want the volatility and the risk and they don't understand it and they just want that 11.5%, which who wouldn't, right? Especially if you're in a retirement or you, you know, you're just really not into this crypto shit or you don't want to have it go down 60%. He paid that 11.5% through this whole drive.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, for or for for short time investment, right. If somebody's older and they don't want to risk, you're going down, guys.

Speaker 4: Guys, think about this logically. If I'm buying STRC and it's paying 11 1/2 percent and I'm, and I know that I'm buying it for the yield and I know that that yield is a function of the price of Bitcoin going up, has to go up over time. If it doesn't go up, I eventually don't get my, my money because he's not going to have any. He's not, you know, he's not going to come up with the cash to pay.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Me. Well, he has. That's why another reason he has the cushion.

Hector Lopez: Already got two to three years save.

Speaker 4: Let me ask you so if if the function of me buying STRC is 11 1/2% yield but I have to, but Bitcoin has to go up for that to pay out and I know that as a buyer of STRC, why not just forgo the STRC and buy the Bitcoin? You follow me here.

Hector Lopez: Have to go up because I.

Speaker 4: Would rather Wouldn't you rather have a capital gain long term than than a?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Than a yeah, but but but but what about somebody that's 80 years old and then just leave their money let.

Speaker 4: Me, just let me just finish this. Let me just finish this up. By the way, that is important because if there is a chance that Bitcoin doesn't go up in that time, that I'm taking a great risk buying STRC.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Not if there's two or three years of cushion, right? Yeah.

Hector Lopez: More.

Speaker 4: Than that so hold on a second but that cushion isn't allocated necessarily to specifically just STRC in six months from now that money could be spent on something else. That money could go somewhere else. I mean, we don't really know unless, unless you're convinced that that that that money is put in an escrow account specifically to payout people that own SCRC. I'm not convinced that's the case here.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Not, not just that O'Hare. The problem with SCRC is that it relies on continuous investor demand. If if Bitcoin goes into a massive drawdown, and I believe it will, you're at risk of losing the actual NAV, you know, so.

Speaker 4: Right.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You could lose your, you could lose a portion of your investment, like the entire amount of dividends that you would have collected over a year or a year and a half could be lost in, in no time. If the NAV, you know, drops in value, that that's the, that's the main concern. And on top of that, you're paying ordinary income on those dividends because, you know, it's not capital gains, as you said. I, I just don't, you know, I'm not, I'm not a fan.

Hector Lopez: What you're getting your, your, your gains return back is return of capital. So it's, you don't get taxed on that until you sell it and you get 11.5%. The other, of course, yes, there is risk that that it's not going to hold par and it's going to drop way below 100. So you lose some of your principal. Yeah, that's risk. So the other point that Joe is making is saying that 11.5% represents risk. That's the risk you're taking. That's why you're getting that money. And I say, yes, that's true, except for its perceived risk. Really, it may not be the real risk. Risk may be much lower for something that's so overcapitalized. So it may be actually a great freaking deal that you're paying 11 point, you're getting 11.5% for a perceived.

Speaker 4: Risk, hold on. But David, he's got other obligations too, not just STRC. So when he said it's overcapitalized, unless there's an escrow account specifically that that says this, this, this particular money is set aside for these investors in STRC to pay the dividend for it until that runs out, let's say it's 24 months, that's fine, but I'm not sure that's spelled out. In other words, there is a, a bunch of money sitting there at, at, at, at, at, at strategy, but that money doesn't necessarily have to be used for paying SCRC or paying any of these other things that he's got going on. It could be pay, it could be used to do other things. So, you know, therein lies the kind of, to me, the dilemma is like, you might as well just, you know, if you're a believer, you might as well just own the Bitcoin, not the SCRC exactly. You know what I mean?

Hector Lopez: I don't get, I don't get 11555 percent interest.

Speaker 4: On that's true, but it but but but David, you don't but here what is the kegger over the next 36 months if Bitcoin does go to 200, let's say right that's what you're so your CAGR is much, much vastly higher holding the Bitcoin if you again, this is a function of if you think the price will go up.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, it depends on your time horizon too though, right? Well.

Speaker 4: The time horizon has to be at least 36 months minimum right? In this case like STRC. So if you believe that the price of Bitcoin will go up, then why not just selling the Bitcoin instead of us?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Here I I agree 100% with that part.

Speaker 4: Get for for for. Go the 11 1/2%, but that's paltry. Look, I could buy Western.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Union. What about the people that don't understand Bitcoin and don't want hold?

Speaker 4: On a second, I could buy Western Union right now, OK, an operating company that's extremely undervalued in my opinion and get 10%, OK.

₿itcoin ₿ull: The same thing you could do with Western Union you could do with stable coins by.

Speaker 4: The way, by the way that that dividend is solid with the upside, the potential upside for the stock with STRC, there is no upside other than the 11 1/2 percent you, you follow. So if I'm an income investor, there are plenty of other vehicles I can I can invest in. Sure, there's risk in every, in anything you invest in, but I would rather buy something like that than STRC. If I'm going to fuck around with STRC or strategy or Bitcoin, I'm going to choose Bitcoin. Why fuck around with STRC and get 11 when if, if the whole idea, the whole premise is I'm going to get 11 because I want that income and Bitcoin is going to go up and that's going to support that. That's income, that stream of income for me. Well, if I if that has to happen, why not just on the Bitcoin then?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I agree everybody should just own Bitcoin. But there's different vehicles for different things is all But.

Hector Lopez: David.

Speaker 2: They take 10.

Hector Lopez: Let's say you have $10 million and so you have a lot of money, $10 million. You put $4 million on Bitcoin, $4 million on MSDR, $2,000,000 in SDRC, you get $200,000 a year income and the others are just growing.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You know, David, David, why would I put $2,000,000 in SDRC and get 11 1/2% while I could go invest it in there are other funds that if you, if you're looking for that type of risk, I would rather get 1450 1516%. There are funds out there that at least have the 152025 year track record. Yeah, they're risky PDIGOF. There are a few of them, you know, they'll pay you 141516.

Speaker 4: Percent. There are stocks that pay over 10% that have.

Hector Lopez: It would be the risk, you look at it sharp ratio, whatever, you calculate the risk. Yeah, what?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Game one. At least they've been around for 2025. Well.

Speaker 4: I just named 1. You could buy Western Union and they pay you 10. They'll pay you 10% right now.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hey, oh, here what does?

Hector Lopez: I wonder what the future of Western Union is with fucking Internet. I mean that could.

Speaker 5: Be let me.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's my concern too. That's what else do they do Let.

Speaker 4: Me just tell you Western Union's been around since 1850. I think they have a pretty good handle on.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So has the mail, and people you know don't mail letters no more.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm just saying they've been around for 150 years. They were the original, one of the original components of the Dow Jones Industrial Average. The only reason I bring that up is because everybody talks shit about companies like that. They know nothing about these companies 0 but they like to talk shit about them, you know. So again, I'm an.

Hector Lopez: Investor.

Speaker 4: I'm an investor and I want yield. That's what I'm gonna go for if.

Hector Lopez: I'm gonna go back and yield.

Speaker 4: I'm not gonna fucking go and forgo, you know, a Bitcoin appreciation because I'm going to get 11%. That's idiotic you.

Speaker 3: Don't know there aren't there.

Speaker 5: But those sailors?

Speaker 4: Make all the money while you recharge. They're investing in SDRC, you know, because.

Speaker 3: My last sell my kidney for SDRC O'Hare.

Speaker 4: I mean, you get David, you don't understand what I'm saying, right? I mean if.

Hector Lopez: You're good. I do. What I'm saying is this, it's back to Joe's point. It's the risk. So the reason you're getting 11% from Western Union is because people consider it risky. That's the same reason you're getting it from STRC, because people think it's risky. You know what? So then you have to decide which is actually less risky. And if you believe in the Bitcoin thesis, then maybe you would decide STRC is less risky than Western Union.

Speaker 4: Potentially.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Jump in PG God.

Speaker 3: I was just going to ask like, aren't there certain types of institutions that just aren't strictly not allowed to invest in certain products? Like what Omar said he was like, you know, there's funds that'll get you 1516%. Well, there's certain types of businesses that aren't allowed to, to have that shit on their balance sheet. And then likewise with O'Hare, like, yeah, if you if the premise is that bitcoins going to go up, why wouldn't I just don't put Bitcoin? That's a great question. Like I think most people in here are like, yeah, the owning Bitcoin is the smarter choice, but I think it's like, why? Why would you know you might not be allowed to hold like an 80 Vol asset on your balance sheet You.

Speaker 4: Might well listen if you but PG but PG listen. You may not be allowed to hold an 80 Vol asset on your balance sheet, but then why hold something that's linked to that asset?

Speaker 3: Because like you said earlier, you believe it will go up over a 5 to 10 year time frame by, you know, a really good performance. But on the ride there, you just really don't want to be exposed to that vault.

Hector Lopez: That's the whole thesis of sailors thing. Why? Because it doesn't have 80 ball. He's dampening the vault. That's the whole point. So he's going what?

Speaker 4: Sailor's doing is he's giving you 11 1/2% and keeping the other 30% or whatever, whatever that kegger turns out to be.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but without the vault.

Speaker 4: Yeah. So again, if if you own an instrument that's linked to the if the underlying is Bitcoin in this case, and your intention is holding it for a prolonged period of time anyway, then derive your income that you need from some other instrument and just hold the Bitcoin because your.

Speaker 3: Return profile is going to.

Speaker 4: Be much better in the Bitcoin than it is in SDRC.

Speaker 3: As an individual investor or Someone Like You who has control over your own book like 100%, but if you're regulated or you're an insurance company or something and you have to have a certain like.

Speaker 4: You're not, you know, ratio, you're not buying this. But yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe not now. Maybe in 5-10 years when they've got like a steady track record, it'll be viewed a little differently potentially. Yeah, maybe. I have no idea, but maybe.

Hector Lopez: That consideration comes down to you deciding there's some 11 1/2% yield product that's lower risk than STRC. Sure. You do that. You decide for yourself, you do the analysis and you decide. I think that it may be that SCRC is a lot lower risk than most of those others that are offering that same.

Speaker 4: Then there's the other thing to consider, which is the Bitcoin doesn't do anything and goes sideways to down. I'm not saying catastrophically down, but let's say it's, let's say in three years from now, it's only 40,000 a Bitcoin. OK, it's still $40,000 per coin. But in this, in this equation, this is not a good outcome, right? I mean, it's, it's a horrible outcome. So the whole premise here is that, I mean, if you're going to be investing for income, I would invest for income using something other than Bitcoin because you know you're taking risk either way. And if you're going to take that risk, you might as well get paid for that risk. Every unit of risk, right? It should be equal to a unit of upside. The unit of downside should be equal to or greater on the upside. And in this STRC's case, it's not. You might as well just own the Bitcoin. You, you follow what I'm saying like like I'm foregoing you just to get just to get the volatility happening. I don't really want that. If you know, if it's linked to Bitcoin, I want that. Now I get what you guys are saying for income investors. But again, I turn around and I tell you, if you're an income investor, there are other things you can do with your money other than investing in this dog shit that Michael Saylor's peddling. Just buy the Bitcoin and invest in a dividend paying instrument elsewhere. That's all I'm saying. You know what? Again, there is no point in investing something linked to Bitcoin to get income.. No reason for that. There's other, you know, things you can invest it by the way, you can invest in tax free municipal bonds that'll pay you a taxable equivalent yield of like 8%. OK, so now it's not 11, but it's 8. That's pretty good for basically risk free money. No, You know what? You guys get what I'm saying? Like that's the way you should think as an investor. You know, if you want to have exposure to Bitcoin and you want that upside, just have exposure to Bitcoin. If you want the income, do that somewhere else with something different. There's no reason that may be true. Yeah, there's no reason to have it to link to Bitcoin.

Hector Lopez: This may not be the product for you. This is like.

Speaker 5: What, Gary?

Speaker 4: It might be the product for you.

Hector Lopez: Right. But what I'm saying is it, it depends on your situation. I think there would be reasons to invest in this and and because you do believe in Bitcoin and you calculate the risk to be lower and you just want to have the income.

Speaker 4: And your time is even shorter and you.

Hector Lopez: Can't handle that volatility because you got bills to pay and if Bitcoin goes down to 40 next year, you're still getting your 11% on 100 bar Where? So that's your calculation why you're doing.

Speaker 5: That's why you're.

Speaker 4: Doing sure, I listen, I get that, but my?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Point. This was the my point.

Hector Lopez: Gary Cardone was was pitching the real estate plus plus Bitcoin plus tokenization, right, and Bitcoin teen and what up a load of shit. Who would want that? It's like, well, you're this isn't for you. This isn't that you know, neither are hair extensions, right? I mean it depends on the customer who that is for.

Speaker 4: And you bring up an.

Speaker 5: Interesting point tokenization.

Speaker 4: I think it becomes, I think, I think what you're talking is speaking to is, is this affinity for Bitcoin, right? So people have this affinity for Bitcoin and they're like, OK, look, I'll have some Bitcoin and then I'll have, let's say, let's say I have $5,000,000. I'm going to put $3,000,000 in Bitcoin and then I'll put a million in, in one of these structured products and then I'll put a million into STRC, right? They want to have that whole ecosystem covered by Bitcoin. I'm not sure that's what you want. I'm not sure that's what you want. You might as well just own the Bitcoin and have your income derived somewhere else. But I think I understand why people are doing it. First of all, it's Sailor. So he's got he's a name brand, right? He, you know, carries a big a big stick and it's Bitcoin related. So people like that, they're comfortable with that. So it's really this affinity around Bitcoin, Like I own Bitcoin, I own something that's generating some income that's linked to Bitcoin. I feel good, right? The problem with that, if you're all in on one thing like this, that's a tremendous amount of risk because it, like I said, it doesn't have to crash for you to lose a bunch of money. You know, it just says, you know, again, if it doesn't go anywhere, maybe it goes down 20 percent, 1520% over the next three years. We don't know, you know well.

Hector Lopez: That's the the joke. The joke somebody said is, yeah, I'm well diversified. I have I bit, MSTR and Bitcoin.

Speaker 5: Exactly.

Hector Lopez: It's all one thing, right?

Speaker 5: It's highly concentrated.

Speaker 4: Yeah, just different variations of the same thing. So, you know, yeah, you, you understand, like, like I said, there's no, no issue having Bitcoin, but you know, just understand what you own and, and if you need the income, there's plenty of avenues for you to take that, you know, that don't involve Bitcoin.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Your conviction by how many chairs are you setting?

Speaker 5: For right now, one.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Are you all in on the chair? What's going on? Block.

Speaker 5: I like the discussion.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's it's good to definitely hear different sides of the maybe.

Hector Lopez: Block can address, you know, what level of concentration into one asset is reasonable because I mean you know, you can overdo it. On the other hand, how you make a lot of money is a concentrated position on a that you have conviction.

Speaker 4: With well, that's the thing, the the greatest fortunes in the world are not made at using diversification. So you know, that's it's always concentration. It's something that actually works. Now the problem is there's risk in that risk of ruling.

Speaker 5: This will be a fun one is what you say. Before O'Hare, how many years out did you say?

Speaker 4: Well, I'm, you know, yeah, I mean, you probably have to look further out than three years, right?

Speaker 5: Let's do that. This would be a fun one. We can write it, write it down five years, 25% Bitcoin, you know, 50% muni's, 25% cash will probably outperform. That'd be my call. Yeah, I agree with that. Own the Bitcoin, hold the Bitcoin. You get your munis, you got your cash.

Speaker 3: Or just go.

Speaker 5: 75% muni safe muni right now, but I I think it's going to blow it out of the water.

Speaker 4: Well, listen, there's no doubt if Bitcoin does what it what people think it will do, there's no doubt it'll outperform most assets, including stocks, many stocks. But The thing is, it's not a sure thing. We don't know if that's going to happen. We don't know. We certainly don't know if it will happen and we certainly don't know what what timeline that.

Speaker 5: Will happen and in that case.

Speaker 3: What do you lose?

Speaker 5: You lose 25%, There you go. It's your hedging.

Speaker 4: Which is, which is again right diversification.

Speaker 2: There you go.

Speaker 4: But if you own Bitcoin and STRC and everything else linked to.

Hector Lopez: My bad. OK, that was my.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I was like what the heck?

Speaker 2: Sorry.

Speaker 3: This is this is way off topic but as I'm missing the little news pop up about Trump and Venezuelan gold. Is it dude just a pirate? Now he just take shit.

₿itcoin ₿ull: No, I didn't. I didn't see it. I didn't see.

Speaker 3: It and now he's taking the fucking gold.

Hector Lopez: Where was this in the news from Iran or what? What is it?

Speaker 3: No, it's going to Venezuela. And he said, give me your gold, bitch.

Hector Lopez: What about the Bitcoin there?

Speaker 3: Fuck the Bitcoin, take the gold.

Hector Lopez: There were rumors there like 600,000 Bitcoin, but it gets back to the issue we talked about earlier is how do you confiscate that? You know, how do you get that? You have to.

Speaker 3: Yeah, you got to beat the fuck out of somebody for their passcode. That's what you got to do. And I don't. I'd be curious to see who has that. Probably the guy in the jail cell, but I find it fascinating if that's actually true. He's just stealing resources now. Wild.

Speaker 5: So what? Sorry I was. I just zoned out there. What did he do? He's taking gold.

Speaker 3: Yeah, he's taking Venezuela's gold.

Speaker 5: There you go. It's with how the world works. You go and steal, blow people up.

Hector Lopez: You say it's a, you say it's a product. It's all a product of narco narco terrorism, and you take it.

Speaker 3: We got to get paid. We got.

Speaker 5: We got to pay off the we got to pay off the debt on those bombs we drop.

Hector Lopez: You know, Block 1 sounds like Harry Cardone. Harry Cardone? Who the hell is that? No, nothing. I don't know. It was a stupid joke.

Speaker 4: Like.

Hector Lopez: Flat, flatter than anything I've ever. It was the worst joke I've ever told. In fact, 3rd and Pat, you're a third Cardone. What about Larry Cardone? That would have hit harder. I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1000kg of gold.

Hector Lopez: What's the value of that?

Speaker 3: Dude, I'm not doing math at 11:30 at night. Let me grab the calculator.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's a recent article. Put it up in a nest.

Hector Lopez: Hey, I just want to just put a suggestion out there for anyone who is like interested in like how can I find like up to date news? I think cointelegraph.com. I'm not, I don't work for them at all, but they do update their articles pretty rapidly which I think is cool. So I'm just putting them as a shameless plug even though I have no association. Just said I'm a fan and I use them. You sure you're not being paid, Pat? You're not being paid to endorse this? No, I really, this is total. I, I wish I could get endorsed. Thousand 1000kg of gold is $170 million. So, I mean, they do this when they bust, you know, narcotics rings and stuff, they compensate. So this is what sovereign governments can do, right? We claim that is illegal, we're taking it, you've forfeited it. But when you're doing that even in another country, I mean, it all gets dicey and weird, doesn't it?

Speaker 3: Well, it's not illegal. We literally came in there fucking start killing people. We took it. I mean, it's as back, back to the stone ages as you get and just beat shit out. Somebody take it.

Hector Lopez: Well, they would have provided some justification. I'm sure we can find out what that was.

Speaker 3: I I mean you can do whatever at this point that the guy.

Speaker 4: Didn't see that story, but if in fact that's true and they were taking gold from Venezuela, if that's if they're it's, it's almost like what the Nazis did during World War 2. They go to France, Poland, Czech, you know, now they're letting they steal everybody's fucking art and gold and take it. It's theirs, right? They so I mean, is this what we're this is where we're at now? Is that we? Is that what we're talking about?

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 2: Mean if.

Speaker 4: There's gold there belongs to the people of Venezuela, not the fucking Trump.

Speaker 3: Agreed. I I think.

Speaker 4: It's the oil by the oil. It doesn't belong to that. It belongs to the people of Venezuela, not to fucking Trump.

Hector Lopez: Where, where is the source of this news? Well, I'm just looking at, you know, AI answers 23 billion, 23 billion in gold reserves to reimburse the US for costs associated with the intervention and political change. So they're securing those assets and they're talking about $23 billion.

Speaker 4: So we we give him a prize.

Speaker 3: I think he's he, he's modern day like pirate like that. That's.

Speaker 4: What it is, it's it's basically. Well, yeah, it's it's basically just like, what do you call it? It's not blackmail. What's the other term? What's the legal term? And.

Speaker 3: Extortion. Extortion. Robbery.

Speaker 4: Extortion. No, they're just extorting them. They're like, OK, we got Maduro out of here and this is what the bill is. Well, how do we know? Well, this is good. We're telling you what it is. This is what the bill is.

Hector Lopez: Or is it like in Iran where when you go to get the body of your loved 1, you got to pay for the bullets that were used to kill them? You got to pay $3000 resource harvesting.

Speaker 5: I think we're waking up to the the way the world's always worked is it's pretty, pretty scary. Well.

Speaker 4: Actually, the world hasn't always. I mean it it historically, but it's been a long time, right? I mean, we've had.

Speaker 5: Pirates for a long time O'Hare.

Speaker 4: Sure we had. Yeah, but but we're not pirates. We're the United States of America.

Speaker 5: We, I don't know, are are we not? Are we not?

Speaker 4: Well, we're not supposed to be.

Speaker 5: We've been doing a lot of bad things for a long time. I've been waking up since 2020. It's kind of.

Speaker 4: Well, when you say long time, that 2020 is not exactly a long time.

Speaker 5: Well, I'm saying that's when I woke up.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, I think 2001, right? September 11th, You know, in my lifetime, 38 years young, that's when the world changed for me. That's when there was a a, a, a, a, a sand, a line drawn in the proverbial sand, as it were. Yeah. Patriot Act. That's when everybody went to that. Yeah, 14 years old. They went down the rabbit hole real quick. We've already seized multiple oil tankers. What are those worth, right? What's the oil they're worth? What are we going to do with the oil in Iran, right from Iran? Get more of it.

Speaker 5: The way he handled that oil deal, he took it and they gave it back to him, probably in exchange for doing what he wants. So it's kind of like a theft and do what? Do what we want and you get it back. You know what I mean?

Hector Lopez: Well, but and also meanwhile divert it from China and or Iran where it might have been destined for, right.

Speaker 4: Ironically, 90% of the shit in your house right now that you look around is made in China. It's so we're going to hurt China by keeping the oil, but we're going to keep buying stuff from them. Square that for me.

Speaker 5: I think that's the that's been the big thing over the last 30 years as we've been buying 90% of our plastic goods and craft from China and.

Speaker 4: You're probably wearing stuff made in China right now as we speak.

Speaker 5: Right. But with these tariffs is incentivizing to produce elsewhere. So we're definitely going to be consuming less from China in the years to come with.

Speaker 4: No, I don't know about that because.

Speaker 3: China. No, no, he's talking about Iran. Like China stops getting their fucking gasoline. Their factories ain't running.

Hector Lopez: Well, you guys are familiar with the whole dilemma with this Iran conflict and our weapons and their weapons, right? So their weapons, they shook something like $200,000 Scud missiles, which they have boatloads of, and we intercept them with two or three $2,000,000 high tech interceptor missiles. OK. We don't have that many of those two or $3,000,000 high tech missiles.

Speaker 4: That doesn't sound like a good. That doesn't sound like a good trade off.

Hector Lopez: No. And where do the parts for those high tech missiles come from? China. We can't even make them. All the parts come from China. Everything that goes in them, the rare earth, the components, the chips, they all come from China. So these two or $3,000,000 missiles that take two or three to shoot down a Scud come from China. It was just a fucking complete catch 22. Then once you run out of them, then they can take their higher tech stuff that's, you know, stored underground in bunkers from from Russia and from China and take out your aircraft carriers or whatever they want or your bases. And you know, so this is what they're talking about is.

Speaker 5: I saw the.

Speaker 4: Craziest fucking I was in the office today. I saw the craziest headline. We, we fucking torpedoed an Iranian ship off the coast of Sri Lanka today that we haven't, there has not been a ship that's been sunk by torpedo since World War 2. So Trump is absolutely breaking new ground here. We're fucking torpedo torpedoing ships now. It's just fucking bananas. If you guys think this thing's going to be wrapped up in two weeks, you guys are smoking crack, OK? Trump's opened a fucking hornet's nest, dude. This is gonna be 1 gigantic. What do they call this? The what is this called? This this thing that they're doing. Epic fury, right? Whatever the I think it's called Epic Fury. The name end up becoming this is gonna be this is gonna end up becoming. Mark my words. You heard it here first. Epic failure. That's what this is gonna end up being. OK? We're gonna look from epic fury. Call it failure. We were. How many fucking years were we in Iraq? I remember.

Speaker 5: Saying they call them forever wars for a reason is.

Speaker 4: Bush went into Iraq that was supposed to be wrapped up in a few in a several months, couple of months tops, 20 fucking years later and like something like several trillion dollars and thousands of lives of U.S. soldiers. I mean this if you think that was tough. Now we're fucking around with Iran. Now they're, I heard an, I heard somebody say this today, I think on CNN, or maybe it was CNBC. Something like 50,000 troops are getting deployed just in case. I mean, if you don't think there's gonna be boots on the ground in the next few days or weeks, you're not paying attention. We're gonna be boots on the ground, OK?

₿itcoin ₿ull: If it does, what do you think the market's gonna do? You think it's gonna it's.

Hector Lopez: Gonna keep on the neighboring. What's the neighboring bases, right? Yeah. People are getting killed in Kuwait, by the way, are lobbing bombs.

Speaker 4: If nothing else, the Persian, the Iranians are very smart. This is these are these people are not fucking dumb, OK, The the problem with this regime is you got a whole country of people that have been suppressed for decades. And I'm happy to see that this that these tyrants have been killed. The problem is it doesn't go to the root of it's not like you cured the cancer. OK, you, you, you killed a tumor or maybe a few tumors, but the cancer is everywhere. And so how do you solve it? You know, and, and Trump comes out and Egg set was on the other day. Oh, we're going to have this wrapped up in a couple of weeks. These guys are blowing smoke up everybody's ass. I, I think when egg set goes to bed tonight, he's probably fucking thinking, what in the fuck have I got myself into? This is going to, this is, this is going to be a gigantic fucking nightmare. OK, That's what's going to happen here. Now, it's good that we got rid of bad guys, but guess what? There's a whole line of bad guys right behind them. OK? It's not like these bad guys were the only bad guys.

Hector Lopez: The bench is deep.

Speaker 4: You know, so and if we have to go in there with force with people on the ground, that's gonna be a just a fucking mess, dude. I guess we're supplying the Kurds up north with weapons now, so.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're. What does it sound?

Speaker 4: Like to you guys, does this sound like Afghanistan to you 2 point O or or Iraq?

Hector Lopez: Well, you spend some money, you get a reason to print, and maybe you do enough damage that the deep bench bad guys decide that it's time to, you know, negotiate and so they can rebuild.

Speaker 4: By the way, you know what? Here's another thing, David. And this is something that that really scares me. What about these sleeper cells in the US? OK, you know, they're here. We, we they're they're here. The question is what? What? What's going to get hit? Is it going to be the Golden Gate Bridge? Is it going to be the Empire State Building? They're going to be the cat. You know, there are sleeper cells here. So you, you've stirred up this mess. And these are very proud people. They're waiting. They're, they're just waiting for an opportunity. And we're giving it to them now. You know, if something like that were to happen, another massive terrorist attack, that's a problem for us.

₿itcoin ₿ull: So you think that I mean, I, I get where you're coming from, but they they're going to do something regardless, in my opinion, if they're here, well.

Speaker 4: I don't know what, yeah, but I think this is obviously giving them a a reason. You don't want to give bad people, You don't want to give desperate.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I mean, maybe I could meet you halfway and say or just push them to do whatever they and never they even going to do quicker that I would go that route, right.

Speaker 4: Well, that's my point. You don't wanna, right? Exactly. There's an old saying, right? The devil you know is, is probably better than the devil you don't. And so we, we we effectively now are gonna be dealing with the devil. We, we don't.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, but he was in in that case, he's coming around anyway. So I mean just, you know.

Hector Lopez: Very difficult to discern. There is one theory I saw offered today is that with AI coming on that the risk is just escalating so high they decided we have to fucking do something.

Speaker 4: Well, here's the thing. But what didn't Trump last year, eight months ago literally just say multiple time he's been saying it all along that they've completely and utterly destroyed Iran's nuclear weapons capabilities. This is from President Trump. OK, so why did we have to go and do this? If if we completely annihilated their, their, you know, weapons of mass destruction, their new program and set it back by decades though, what are we doing?

Hector Lopez: I think it was only a few weeks later they were saying no maybe.

Speaker 4: Not no, but we destroyed it. I mean, we, we completely demolished it. I mean, he said it himself multiple times.

Hector Lopez: Yeah, the day after, you know.

Speaker 4: That Trump would So now we're in a war with Iran. But.

Hector Lopez: Supposedly we didn't.

Speaker 4: Have any capabilities?

Hector Lopez: Within weeks they were backing away from that.

Speaker 4: So what's a lie? Is that a lie? Or is is this a lie? Was it all a lie?

Speaker 3: Oh here, what's your opinion on oil? Because WTI has held up pretty well, it just seems like Brent's been the one that's kind of been shuffled around.

Speaker 4: Well, I don't. I think oil prices are probably going to go higher anyway, regardless of what happens in Iran. Obviously this whole thing with Iran now is going to speed up the process. I think oil was, you know, oil was doing its thing. You know it a lot of these companies are making money where oil was already. So it wasn't like they need to have a much higher oil price. The fact that they're going to have a higher oil price, it's remember that the oil industry is a big industry. There's a lot of moving parts here. There's people that buy the oil, there's people that refine it, there's people that move it. So there's a lot of different moving parts. It just depends on what part of the energy.

Speaker 3: Attach I guess I'm thinking of a commodity as a whole, but I maybe you sparked a better question. Are you thinking of investing more in like the upstream or downstream?

Speaker 4: Well, I think the down the midstream, downstream is probably where, where, where, where you're going to look. And if you want to go upstream, I would go offshore. So if you're going to look at producers, I would look at, you know, offshore drillers. I mean, look the, the, the, the, the biggest deposits of oil are offshore now, right? They're just, it's just expensive. So it needs a higher price. I've said this for years. I've, I've been on a lot of these oil and gas spaces with the, the Canadian oil mafia guys. And, and I was telling him 3-4 years ago that, you know, look, you know, look at offshore, look at, you know, kind of the, the, you know, the refiners are a great place to invest even now. And then the midstream guys, the guys that move oil from one place to another, the pipelines, the MLPS, those are, you know, those are great assets and those are not replaceable, you know, so but yeah, I think I think obviously this, this conflict is going to keep a bid, you know, under oil. It's probably going to drive prices higher. You know, I'm not convinced that this is going to like blow over then in the next couple of weeks. So, you know, if it doesn't, if I'm right and this thing goes on and goes into the, you know, you know, months, not weeks, God forbid, years. I mean, obviously, you know, by the way he's got midterms coming up. I think what they wanted to do maybe was to demonstrate this, this ability to like, well, he only.

Speaker 3: Has 60 days right? Something like that.

Speaker 4: Well, technically right, because he has, yeah. Otherwise, yeah, they're going to. They're going to look, if this thing gets drawn out, they're going to impeach his ass. That's what's going to end up happening. I mean, because none of us want a war. We certainly don't want to be involved in the war. We certainly don't want our soldiers dying and fucking Iran fighting a, you know, a war there. And we, we've been doing this for decades now with Afghanistan and Iraq. And, you know, there's the Persian Gulf, the first Persian Gulf war. I was in high school when we had the first Persian Gulf war in the late 80s, early 90s. And then we, you know, then a decade later we were back there again. And then, you know, then Afghanistan. I mean, it's just one thing after another. There's always, you know, I mean, we need someone. I've, I've always said somebody needs to be the, the guy that carries the big stick. You know, I get it. But you know, it's, you know, no one wants to see our young, our young men go over there and get killed, you know, for some fucking war.

Speaker 2: And.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Hopefully they don't have to put boots on the gun.

Speaker 4: Well, we you hope, right? I mean, we, how many people have died now? What's the count for U.S. soldiers now?

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm not even sure I haven't put on the TV last couple days to be honest with.

Speaker 4: You last I looked it was like 10 or something like that and it's been a week or less. It's been 5 days. Not even right. What? Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday are four days.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it is interesting how I mean you, you can imagine it's some extent like how quick the issue escalates. It's like gradually, then suddenly.

Speaker 5: Sure.

Speaker 4: I mean, look, there's no question whether superiority, we have the the technology, we have all those things and that's all fucking great to attack somebody from the air.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but not the scene. Like you're like you're getting. I can't hold a street corner.

Speaker 4: Yeah, but if you can't get there to Tehran, if you can't get to the cities and, and and and and, you know, and great order, then what's the point? I mean, yeah, so you have the skies, you can fly around, you can bomb shit. But at some point you got to stop that and like actually rebuild the country and, and get people to back to work and back to school and being productive and doing things, having a society. So if you're just going to go and take a stick and, and, and, and stick it in a, in a hornet's nest and, and wave it around and then leave that, I'm not sure that's, that's the right solution here. So what is the solution? Do they have a solution? I'm not sure they do. I don't think they've thought it out too well. I mean, they're going to have to look, they're going to have to get rid of all the bad guys. And I'm not sure. I think David said, you know, they have a deep bench of bad guys. I agree. I think there's, there's, you know, but just say it's not 5050. Let's say it's 7030, let's say 70% of the population would like to, would like to see, you know, Iran back to what it was like, you know, pre revolution. But that means that 30% of the population still hardcore religious zealots, you know, And so if that's the case, that's going to be a hard battle to win because that's a lot of people. What is the population of Iran like 100,000,090 million or something?

Speaker 3: Yeah, something like that.

Speaker 4: You know, so you, you know, that's, that's 7030. So, you know, you're, you're, you know, 30 million people are hard. You know, it's just, I don't know what it is. It might be 5050, who knows, maybe 6040, Whatever the percentage is, there's a lot of people, 10s of millions of people that are still, you know, kind of behind the, the Ayatollah. What do you do with those people you know?

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. It's an ideology, right? Can't. Can't really bust an ideology that easily.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and that's the problem because again, you know, we're on a, we're on a timeline, we're on a clock here. You know, they, they want to go in, do a, you know, you know, Operation Epic Fury, you know, let's not let, like I said, let, let's hope it doesn't become Operation Epic failure and costing us. So all you know already, I think it's costing somebody was saying today, I think it's costing us somewhere like $2 billion a day or something.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I I just imagine if they.

Speaker 4: I mean it just that that starts to add up quick, right? I mean, we have, we have a whole, we have all kinds of naval, you know, you know, ships and, and, and troops and Air Force. And I mean, just, I mean, think about the, think about all the people, all the equipment involved, you know, I mean, just, it's just a massive, massive undertaking and it costs a lot of money. And, you know, it's different, like if you are attacked, you know, great examples like World War 2, right? When you have a World War that's being fought on all kinds of different fronts, obviously that's a whole different scenario than something like this, you know?

Speaker 3: Well, well, that's the weird thing because I think of right where like, if Pearl Harbor didn't happen, do you really think US would have gotten involved with World War 2?

Speaker 4: Well, it would have been a lot harder to get involved for sure.

Speaker 3: Because I think the big thing is Pearl.

Speaker 4: Harbor in the war, in the war in Europe. Now we'd have to be done. Imagine if the US did not get involved. But what? Yeah. I, I I.

Speaker 3: Guess I'm just a thing is that like because I think about today, right, like Ayatollah, yes, terrible guy. Were they chanting death to America in their Parliament? Yes, terrible, right. Does that warrant getting involved? I'm not sure like because it's I I take a framework of my whole family served. So what I want my whole family dead for this conflict. I'm I have a very hard time squaring that.

Speaker 5: There's an old.

Speaker 4: Saying no good deed goes unpunished, right? So we're, we're doing a good deed for the people of Iran, right? But that doesn't mean it's just, it's going to be, it's like a cost less thing. So when I say cost less, I mean it's not just money. It's lives, American lives, you know, And furthermore, furthermore, like I said, the worst case scenario is now all of a sudden, you know, that we stir up a lot of shit and there's sleeper cells here in the US that get emboldened to, to, to do something really stupid. You know what I mean?

Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's what they're trying to figure out with the Austin guy.

Speaker 4: Well, there could be guys like him. I mean, we, there's crazy people everywhere, right? I mean, it's, it's, you know, we don't know if he's lent to Iran or anything. I mean, it could have just been some crazy motherfucker that just hates the US government or whatever. And he throws on a fucking sweatshirt that says, you know, whatever. What? What? What did his shirts say?

Speaker 3: There's like praise Allah, but that's your point. I mean, I, I mean, that's even worse, right? So then, now, now not.

Speaker 5: Only do you have sleeper cells?

Speaker 3: But then you have the crazy.

Hector Lopez: Fox.

Speaker 4: Yeah, you got the copycat. It's like they always say, you know, with like mass is, you know, like, like, you know, the, the mass shootings or whatever, you know, then you get the copycats. The more you see it on television, the more people get involved that like, you know, I'm, I'm not happy with my life. So I'm going to go out and I'm going to go out in the blaze of glory like that dude did. So then you get these copycat dudes. You know, that's the scary part. You just don't know.

₿itcoin ₿ull: That's hard because no, I mean, you've, you got to have I, I just feel like I try to stick out of stuff like this because, you know, it's just so much more info that we don't have that, you know, we're to make a decision or something like this. You got to know the full picture like that, you know, we just only know what we hear and what we see. So I try to stay out of things like this, you know?

Speaker 4: Well, and you can have all the best intelligence in the world and the US does, I mean, we have, you know, when you, you look at the Israelis, I mean Mossad and, and we, we have the best intelligence in the world, but even our intelligence that we have, that we gather may or may not be good, right? I mean, there's probably there's some good Intel there, but there's probably some misleading Intel there too that you have to wade through. You know, so I mean, I, I think it's going to be, you know, I think this is going to be a lot harder than I think people are being led to believe this, this idea. It's going to be a couple of weeks and we're in and out and everything's going to be fine. And they're going to vote in a new leader and everything's going to go back to being great. I mean, I think that's a that's a pipe dream.

Speaker 3: There are too many people with.

Speaker 4: There are just too many people with an interest in, in, you know, and I mean, think about it when you haven't, when you have a system. A good example would be like North Korea. You know, imagine doing something there, you know, or even in, you know, look at Cuba. Now they're thinking about Cuba, right? It's it's just weird that all of a sudden now this administration is like hell bent on just going to all these different places and, you know, trying to strong arm. By the way, I don't agree with what's going on here. I also don't agree with what the Democrats were doing for years and years and years pandering to these people, you know, like not doing anything. Like there's there's got to be a middle ground. You know, you got to use some force sometime, you know, unfortunately.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I mean, if they keep saying they're gonna kill you every fucking week, I mean, it's weird though, like you're saying about World War 2 is like would we have gotten involved if Pearl Harbor and Zimmerman, Like I I'd, I honestly don't think America would've. I don't think there would've.

Speaker 4: Hadn't happened. It'd be a lot harder to justify going to war for sure. And you know what I mean? I don't know. I, I, I, we were already sending Millet, you know, equipment, things like that. But I mean, boots on the ground, getting our soldiers involved. And that would have been a really hard sell if Pearl Harbor hadn't happened.

₿itcoin ₿ull: The only thing I think of is, you know, China seen us do this and then they thinking and out, well, they're doing what the hell they want. Let me do what I want. You know, that's the only thing I think about.

Speaker 3: Yeah, if I was China, I'd fucking go for Taiwan, right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Now, yeah, that's my point. Like how, how could you point fingers if you, you're doing this here, you're doing this there and then, you know, but like I said, I don't, I don't really have a, a take on it because I'm just, I feel like I'm smart enough to know that there's, you know, there's a lot more details and we don't that we all don't know.

Speaker 3: The the, the thing I find curious in the whole thing though, is Turkey. I think Turkey and NATO, that's kind of the interesting thing because Iran accidentally fired a missile towards Turkey and Turkey took it down. But that would have landed in Turkey. That would have given complete justification for Article 5.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I'm sorry, I tried to unmute my mic, Doug. You could just jump in, Doug.

Speaker 3: Yeah, this doesn't have anything a whole lot to do with Iran or Venezuela. It has everything to do with China. We we are now controlling all trade routes that lead to China. Brexit is dead. This is all about China and flipping the poker table around on them and Cuba. And O'Hare is right, Cuba is going to fall because they have no more oil from Venezuela.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, I just, I have a friend that goes to Cuba all, all the time. He grew up there, He's a citizen here and he was just telling me how bad they'd throw the regime there. Now currently he said I got to go. I can go back in my texts if you guys are interested. But I told everybody in spaces yesterday, they keep the fuel is like $30 a gallon. There's not no even no gas even for airplanes. There's a lot of shit going on there right now in Cuba.

Speaker 3: I mean, look at it. We we control the Panama Canal now we're up there in Greenland, Arctic trade routes, both sides of the Middle East, both of those Red Sea and the and the Persian Gulf. I I don't, my geography is not that great, but both sides of that Middle East, yeah, we're choking China out and bricks.

Speaker 5: Is dead.

Speaker 3: Yeah, well, well, but the O'hare's party earlier, all of our shit is made there. No, I agree. I agree. I agree, but we have to fight back somehow. I mean, we got our we got caught with our pants down during COVID. No, I mean, I didn't hear everything O'Hare said. I'm not attacking O'Hare. I'm just Yeah, No, no, I'm not. I'm not saying you are. It's just like at the very bad, bad point is like, and I think a lot of individuals forget this how intertwined supply chains really are and like how much of A cluster fuck it is getting among like dis tangled. And and like an example for that for me is I I I need this one critical part for one of my things. I'm going to shut down this one plant in the US and my plane is stuck in fucking Abu Dhabi. It's coming from Malaysia and I have no idea how to get the parts out there.

₿itcoin ₿ull: They were saying that Canada was sending empty, empty planes to Cuba to pick up people from there. Cuba, Canadians. So something big is going on there.

Speaker 3: Canadians are Canada's importing Cubans, though.

₿itcoin ₿ull: I don't think, I don't think Cubans, I think just to pick up the Canadians that are there in Cuba, a lot of Canadians go to Cuba.

Speaker 4: Well, remember, Canada is gonna have an embargo with Cuba like the US does. So U.S. citizens that want to go to Cuba have to, you know, usually travel to Toronto, you know, to Canada.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, I went. I went straight there, doing right right before Trump's first time. I went directly there. It was like from US. Yeah, from US.

Speaker 4: Interesting.

Speaker 3: Well, you like you're talking a few nights earlier before you're coattailing off Obama's role, right?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I think I, I couldn't remember whose role it was, but I think it was Obama's rule. But it it went over into Trump's and then he changed it. But I could have sworn it was Trump that that put the robot. I don't know. It was definitely around his first term, but it's like a whole new world there. It's crazy.

Speaker 3: Here is the question though, if the oil actually stops and like we don't really understand the usages of certain countries, you could completely shutter economies, shutter societies, like it could get serious very quickly.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Well, I'm wondering.

Hector Lopez: What's going on with Cuba, with the.

₿itcoin ₿ull: With the fuel and stuff where where they must have got shut off, right? That's what I'm thinking.

Speaker 3: Well, my biggest thing is like for India, like it was estimated quote UN quote, India has like 30 days worth of of oil within their system, right? But they don't have a wet line of.

Speaker 4: Supply shut down these wells. What you do is you just slow them down, but oil still keeps flowing. So what you need to do is, you know, they have a lot of storage facilities in and around, you know, Iran and you know, and I'm sure a lot of those are not full or probably empty. So there's plenty of spots to store the oil. And then there's plus they have offshore, you know, storage facilities, ships and things like that. So I don't know how how long it would take to fill all that up. You probably weeks, but, you know, at some point they're going to have to, you know, move the oil, you know, So what's interesting is, you know, I, I'm just curious like how I don't know if anybody knows this and I haven't seen any reporting on it, But you know, you got the Caspian Sea and then you got Russia not that far away. So I'm just wondering, like, obviously the US intelligence has to know if there's any kind of, you know, backdoor dealings with the with Moscow, you know, and, and, and Iran, you know, any help that they're going to send?

Speaker 3: Wasn't there like a week or two ago rumors in the news or something there was a a trade deal being done with Putin and Trump or the US and Russia? Does anyone remember hearing that?

₿itcoin ₿ull: Vaguely, I don't hear. I don't remember anything about that.

Speaker 3: And then and then everyone. Has everyone heard what we're doing in Ecuador right now? Yeah. I mean, I heard we blew something up there too.

Speaker 4: What in Ecuador, really?

Speaker 3: Yeah, it says some narcos.

Speaker 4: Today.

Speaker 3: Quote UN quote, no, it's like a there. So go in here.

Speaker 4: Wait, really? Ecuador? All right. Well, I guess.

Speaker 3: I might be watching too much Fox News. I might be watching too much.

Speaker 4: Fox News. Yeah, the Fox News will rot your brain, so you should. You should turn that Channel and watch something else too. Maybe CNN for good measure.

Speaker 3: I'm not being, I'm being funny, dude.

₿itcoin ₿ull: You know.

Speaker 3: No. But anyway, yeah, if you look at it like we're we're the United States has now controls the global flow of oil. It's just interesting. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just interesting.

Speaker 4: I was reading something on Bloomberg this evening that China is now put a a moratorium on on diesel fuel heavy fuel exports from their main refinery, which is interesting apparently.

Speaker 3: Were they? Were they refining Iran's oil? Or whose oil were they refining?

Speaker 4: I'm not sure, I didn't read the whole article, I just saw the a piece that came across.

Hector Lopez: I.

Speaker 3: Imagine they exported to the smaller Asian countries, right?

Speaker 4: Well, I think it's probably mute while I don't know. Let's look. Let me see if I can look it up again.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Yeah, I don't know what's going to go on. I guess we're it's only a matter of time. If we find out, we'll see. Hopefully it doesn't end up drawing out.

Speaker 3: You know, you know what's funny about me is like, I voted for Trump and all that, but my God, if he could just shut his mouth and let this market cook. It seems like like we'll start doing good and then he shoots the market in the foot and then we have three months of bullshit, you know?

Speaker 5: Doug, I like your Ghibli PFP.

Speaker 3: My what? PFP? My Ghibli.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Ghibli. Is that what that's called? Ghibli?

Speaker 5: Yeah, Ghibli.

Speaker 3: I just did a cartoon. I took a regular selfie and told Rock make it a cartoon.

Speaker 5: It looks Ghibli. I don't know.

Speaker 3: What does Ghibli mean?

Speaker 5: I don't even know. Oh.

Speaker 3: OK, I don't care. I don't even know who's talking.

Speaker 5: No, it's a full throttle over here, so.

₿itcoin ₿ull: Full throttle.

Speaker 5: Oh, full throttle.

Speaker 3: OK, cool. Nice to meet you brother. How you doing bro?

Speaker 5: Doing good. Alrighty. Where you from Washington DC already? I know where that's at, I believe. Where you from? Toronto, SoCal originally. Well, Norcal and Socal, So yeah, California, Norcal and Socal.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So if you went to prison, What Car would you ride in? The Norcals or the Socals?

Speaker 5: I have no idea bro, no idea what. Why would you say that, by the way?

Speaker 3: Don't they ride they they call them cars in the California prison system depending on whatever you are from California.